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From: Wendy chan (csiewyendso.org.sg)
Date: Wed Nov 21 2001 - 21:05:10 CST

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    Can anyone tell me why do we need to swap the last two blocks after encryption?

    -sy


     
    From: Marcus Watts (mdwumich.edu)
    Date: Wed Nov 21 2001 - 23:36:25 CST

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    Vin McLellan <vinshore.net> sent:
    > That suggests that the essential product of any crypto vendor is trust --
    > and, perhaps, that boards of directors like to have someone with deep
    > pockets standing behind the Crypto Wizards for when something goes wrong;-)

    I agree, and that's why I find RSA's use of patent & copyright law
    especially disappointing. But, this all gets into crypto-politics, and
    I'm really much more interesting in coding.

    > Folks here would know better than I, but my impression was that all five
    > AES finalists were impressive cryptosystems, each of which had some areas
    > in which it held some advantage relative to the other four. (Matt Robshaw
    > published a brief post-AES paper which explored this for RC6 vs Rijndael:
    > <ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/rsalabs/rc6/rc6%2Baes.pdf>)

    I agree, all of the finalists were very impressive.

    > I think I'd remember it if the code Mr. Salasio posted to the Cryptography
    > list last year had such a Get-Out-of-Jail card attached to it. (If it did
    > -- or if some other version of his work was so labelled -- he was
    > wrong.) No implementation of RC6 is "public domain;" although multiple
    > versions of the RC6 code abound. Surely, it would take a real innocent to
    > believe that because a design for something is published, it is unencumbered?

    The version I saw was actually posted by "Anonymous <nobodyreplay.com>" on
    or about Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:45:45 -0700 to coderpunkstoad.com under the
    title "RC6 (TM) redux... this time with decryption". It came with this
    comment at the start:

    /* rc6 (TM)
     * Unoptimized sample implementation of Ron Rivest's submission to the
     * AES bakeoff.
     *
     * Salvo Salasio, 19 June 1998
     *
     * Intellectual property notes: The name of the algorithm (RC6) is
     * trademarked; any property rights to the algorithm or the trademark
     * should be discussed with discussed with the authors of the defining
     * paper "The RC6(TM) Block Cipher": Ronald L. Rivest (MIT),
     * M.J.B. Robshaw (RSA Labs), R. Sidney (RSA Labs), and Y.L. Yin (RSA Labs),
     * distributed 18 June 1998 and available from the lead author's web site.
     *
     * This sample implementation is placed in the public domain by the author,
     * Salvo Salasio. The ROTL and ROTR definitions were cribbed from RSA Labs'
     * RC5 reference implementation.
     */

    I have no idea what Mr. Salasio may have posted to the Cryptography
    list last year. There are two interesting legal issues with the 1998
    version. The first is whether this is indeed the authentic wishes of
    the actual author (being that it was posted anonymously this would be
    hard to prove), and the 2nd is that term "public domain", which is less
    meaningful in this era of implicit copyrights than it used to be.
    Presumably, if RSA's evil lawyers got nasty or the NSA guys got
    courtly, Mr. Salasio would have an easier time escaping risk than the
    OpenSSL project. With these caveats, I believe the above to be
    actually more liberal than the OpenSSL licensing terms, and the major
    objection would be that they are "too" liberal and risky.

    It's possible someone pointed out the problems with "public domain" and
    anonymous distribution to Mr. Salasio and that he released a later
    version with a BSD style copyright. Alternatively, there is always
    Brian Gladman's implementation.

    I believe the "cribbed" rotate sequences compile down to 1 or 2
    instruction sequences in somebody's 386+ C compiler. There's
    apparently only one way to code that such that the efficient sequence
    is produced. As such, I doubt the code fragement is copyrightable, any
    more than a word or phrase would be in English. It's been claimed
    that risc processors don't have a rotate instruction, but I believe
    that's mainly true of the Sparc. It's certainly not true of ppc.
    As an experiment I coded up a rios implementation a while back; here's
    a small part of it:
            #
            # do the key loop
            # for s=0;s<v;++s)
            # { A=S[i]=ROTL(S[i]+A+B,3);
            # B=L[j]=ROTL(L[j]+A+B,A+B);
            # i=i+1;if(i>=R24)i=0;
            # j=j+1;if(j>=c)j=0; }
            #
                    b __L1ac
            __L1d0:
                    bc BO_IF_1,CR0_LT,__L1e0
                    cal r11,0(r0) # j=0
            __L1e0:
                    a r7,r9,r0 # B = A+B
                    rlinm r6,r11,2,0,29
                    lx r0,r8,r6 # L[j]
                    cmpi 1,r10,44 # i >= R24
                    a r0,r0,r7 # L[j]+B
                    rlnm r0,r0,r7,0,31 # B = ROTL(L[j]+B,B)
                    ai r11,r11,1 # ++j
                    stx r0,r8,r6 # L[j] = B
                    bc BO_IF_1,CR1_FX,__L228
                    cal r10,0(r0) # i=0
            __L228:
                    rlinm r7,r10,2,0,29
                    ai r10,r10,1 # ++i
            __L1ac:
            # r0 B r3 S r7 i*sizeof long
            # r9 A r10 i r11 j
            # r12 c r8 L
                    cmp 0,r11,r12 # j >= c
                    lx r6,r3,r7 # A = S[i]
                    a r6,r6,r9 # S[i] + A
                    a r6,r6,r0 # S[i] + A + B
                    rlinm r9,r6,3,0,31 # A = ROTL(S[i]+A+B,3)
                    stx r9,r3,r7 # S[i] = A
                    bc BO_dCTR_NZERO,CR0_LT,__L1d0
    The C version with gcc does 'setkey' in 30 microseconds; with xlc, it's
    only 16.5 microseconds. My assembler version, with the clever rotate
    and other changes, gets this down to a mere 13.3 microseconds. (If you
    think these speeds are slow, consider this was all on a 33.3 Mhz rios
    machine, hardly state of the art.) So, using the proper instruction is
    indeed slightly more efficient, though I wouldn't say the difference is
    earth-shaking.

    But, I've disgressed into coding (oh the shame, the shame)...

    also
    >
    > On RC6, Ben Laurie <benalgroup.co.uk> also noted:
    >
    > >> The OpenSSL implementation is freely redistributable.
    >
    > Yup. But that simply transfers the risk of patent infringement to any firm
    > which uses the code.
    ...
    (interesting tangent omitted...)

    Salvo Salasio's "public domain" version warns of the very same risks.

    Gladman's code, as well as Salasio's above, both warn of RSA's
    interests. Patent law covers *use* not *copying* - so RSA can't stop
    anyone from distributing copies of either implementation, just as with any
    regular hardware patent, anyone can write up a discription of the
    process or hardware and publish it in any magazine. In fact, one of
    the original purposes of patent law was to *force* you to publish a
    non-copyrighted description of the process [it was published by the US
    federal government which is by design excluded from copyright law] so
    that other people could study, discuss, publish descriptions of, and,
    in time, improve upon your process or gizmo. Assuming software patents
    are enforceable, during the lifetime of the patent, the owner *can*
    regulate the use of it, up to and including requiring that you only use
    certain implementations, operate it on hardware sold by the owner, only
    run it during a full moon, or that you rent a specially trained and
    licensed operator from the owner to be on hand at all times. These are
    all allowed by patent law and have been used many times in the past
    (well, ok, maybe not the moon thing.) It's up to the owner of the
    patent to decide how they wish to best exploit their patent. The
    patent owner can't stop you from experimental use of his algorithm, or
    claim copyright on your own independent description or implementation
    of his patent. Hence Gladman and Salasio should both be in the clear
    here. Neither Gladman nor Salasio claim their independent
    implementations of RC6 are unencumbered, merely free to publish.

    I think RSA also claims another IP right -- "trademark" on the use of
    the term RC6 to describe implementations of the algorithm.

    Of course, I am not a lawyer too. Your mileage may vary. Since I'm
    not a lawyer, you can't sue me for my legal advice. At least, I think
    you can't and win. Or at least I hope you won't. I'd really rather
    code.

                                            -Marcus Watts
                                            UM ITCS Umich Systems Group


     
    From: awdsprontomail.com
    Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 07:42:34 CST

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    From: James Tobin (james_btobinhotmail.com)
    Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 11:03:01 CST

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    From: Vin McLellan (vinshore.net)
    Date: Wed Nov 21 2001 - 19:16:36 CST

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    >
    > > On RC6, Ben Laurie <benalgroup.co.uk> also noted:
    > >
    > > >> The OpenSSL implementation is freely redistributable.

    Ben clarified:

    >Actually, my comment was aimed at AES (and possibly other free crypto
    >stuff, I forget). OpenSSL has no RC6 implementation.

    I thought you were referring to the John Hughes module recently posted to
    CSPAN:
    <http://www.cpan.org/modules/by-module/Crypt/Crypt-RC6-0.05.readme>

    Suerte,
                _Vin


     
    From: Valerie Patterson (gtwysendyahoo.com)
    Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 00:19:01 CST

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    From: Lance James (lance.jamesbakbone.com)
    Date: Wed Nov 21 2001 - 00:47:11 CST

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     Yes this is what I mean, I have written some code that rotates the session
    key every 52 blocks, (1 block being categorized as 1 message, being this is
    for a networking protocol). Ok, so it's not non-original.. is there anything
    I should be aware of?

    Lance James

    -----Original Message-----
    From: dawmozart.cs.berkeley.edu
    To: coderpunkstoad.com
    Sent: 11/20/01 4:14 PM
    Subject: Re: Rolling Key Algorithms

    Lance James wrote:
    >Are there any current encryption schema's or protocols, that utilize
    session
    >key rotation?

    What do you mean by session key rotation?

    Do you just mean the notion that you should change your session key
    every
    so often? If so, yes: most good protocols incorporate this concept to
    some extent. For instance, in IPSec, security associations can come
    with lifetimes (can be specified in bytes or in seconds), and when they
    expire a re-key event is automatically triggered.


     
    From: Greg Rose (ggrqualcomm.com)
    Date: Wed Nov 21 2001 - 17:19:13 CST

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    At 07:30 PM 11/21/2001 +1300, Peter Gutmann wrote:
    >You'd be surprised. RSADSI somehow got RC5/CBC adopted and widely used WTLS
    >even though it's (a) very suboptimal for use in cellphones and other things
    >with tinkertoy processors and (b) expensive to license. It'd be interesting
    >to know how they convinced the WAP people to adopt it.

    The same way that Cylink got Bluetooth to adopt SAFER+ (for key management,
    not encryption!). You charge a lot of money and tell them that it's more
    expensive, and hence is clearly better.

    Greg.

    Greg Rose INTERNET: ggrqualcomm.com
    Qualcomm Australia VOICE: +61-2-9817 4188 FAX: +61-2-9817 5199
    Level 3, 230 Victoria Road, http://people.qualcomm.com/ggr/
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    From: mccoywearthlink.com
    Date: Fri Nov 23 2001 - 17:23:08 CST

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