<rant>
The reason I asked about the hardware vendors is because I'm mad at mine. The
product, an Addtron AWP-100, specifically listed Linux as one of the
supported operating systems right on the box. Indeed a Linux driver was
included, version 0.1.4 of wlan-ng, which was hardly useable. I had to hunt
down the wlan-ng project on the web for a newer version as there was nothing
in the Addtron documentation or on their web site that pointed me to it, nor
was there an upgrade to 0.1.7 at Addtron's site. (It did finally appear, a
couple of months later.)

Once I found the project I downloaded wlan-ng 0.1.7 which was a vast
improvement over 0.1.4, but I still had to patch the driver myself to keep it
from crashing the OS, plus I had to make changes to support Red Hat 7.

So what I'm asking is, where the hell is Addtron in all of this? If they're
going to list Linux on the box as a supported OS then they'd better be
supporting the project, with technical help, budget, or both. If it says
Linux on the box then I expect not to be hacking driver code just to get
rudimentary functionality. Sheesh. Non-hackers buy this stuff too. What are
they supposed to do?
</rant>

Terry Griffin

On Wednesday 07 March 2001 17:47, you wrote:
> I know it was a long mail, but this is probably going to be my last post
> on this thread. See, I told you I'm easily distracted. ;-)
>
> I've included a note I received from Thorsten and also Terry's
> question. Both are solid questions that need addressing:
>
> 1) Is there freely available documentation?
>
> The short answer is no. Intersil requires an NDA (and some other stuff I
> think) to get the driver programmer's documentation. As part of an
> agreement on an earlier development contract with Intersil (which
> contributed some funded development to linux-wlan-ng), we have an
> arrangement that allows us to develop against the NDA materials and
> release the code openly.
>
> Intersil is taking Linux seriously at the moment. They've come to it
> slowly, but they are definitely coming on at this point. Now, that
> creates issues for some of their NDA-required materials. We're talking
> with them about it and trying to work out a reasonable solution. If we
> can get some of the documentation opened up, I will try to mirror it on
> our site (yeah, yeah, _when_ I get the site fixed).
>
> 2) Do any of the vendors who are collecting your money contribute
> something to the OS stuff?
>
> A few of their employees have contributed patches (again, apologies to the
> contributors for not getting them rolled in sooner, I haven't forgotten
> about you). Aside from that, we've gotten a few pieces of sample
> hardware. But that's usually because the vendor wants us to make sure the
> code is compatible so they can add the 'linux compatible' checkbox.
>
> This is also something we're discussing with Intersil. If the discussions
> bear fruit, you'll be the first to know.
>
> [Disclaimer: anyone who considers the following a commercial plug and an
> abuse of the list, I apologize.]
>
> One of the main reasons I haven't been posting is that AVS is developing
> our own AP and PCCARD product lines. It has been a lot more work than we
> ever expected and we've had some delays, but we're inching closer every
> day. Once the product line is released and if list members buy
> some.....then you'll _really_ be in a position to give us a hard time.
> ;-)
>
> But seriously, we're working very hard to try and make sure you won't have
> a reason to give us a hard time.
>
> Thanks for listening, don't forget I'm lurking, and I'll try to be back
> soon.
>
> Best Regards,
> -Mark
>
> > From tjungbluuni-koblenz.de Wed Mar 7 20:22:34 2001
> >
> > i would like to help programming the driver and supporting it...
> >
> > but:
> > is there a freely available documentation for the prism2-chipset and
> > cards and the hfa controller ?
> >
> > or how can someone help without such documentation ?
> >
> > Gruß,
> > Thorsten
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Thorsten Jungblut
> > Universität Koblenz, Fachbereich Informatik
> > tjungbluuni-koblenz.de -> ask for pgp public key
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Terry Griffin wrote:
> >
> > So I have to ask, perhaps retorhically, who all expects to make money
> > by selling prism2-based (or other WLAN) hardware to Linux users and why
> > aren't they supporting the OS effort to the require level?
> >
> > It's not like I acquired my hardware for free. Somebody got my money
> > for that, and I'd like to think that a slice of that would go to
> > Mark for doing his OS work. The hardware ain't nothin without the drivers
> > and the powers that be need to understand that.
> >
> > Terry Griffin
> >
> > P.S. And I'm also a patch contributor, so I've given more than just my
> > money. It can't be a one-way deal. Somebody has to give back.
> >
> > > Hi Scott and all,
> > >
> > > Disclaimer: I'm cross posting this to both user and devel.
> > >
> > > Hello after a long absence for which I apologize for and will probably
> > > continue in the near term.
> > >
> > > Here are the facts of the matter:
> > >
> > > 1) AVS is a business that feeds and clothes a number of employees and
> > > their families.
> > > 2) Our paying customers will always come first
> > > 3) Whatever time is left is allocated to support the Open Source code
> > > as best we can with the time available.
> > >
> > > Over the past six months, our time has been completely consumed with
> > > tradeshows, geographically moving our business, supporting our existing
> > > customers and developing new products. Hence my absence from the list
> > > and no new releases of the OS code. When I say completely consumed,
> > > we're not just talking about consuming 40 hour weeks. It's much, much
> > > more.
> > >
> > > That doesn't mean that nothing has been happening. I have been
> > > collecting patches, lurking on the lists, and sending out occasional
> > > directed support mail. The directed mail is so I don't get pulled into
> > > long threads.
> > >
> > > Additionally, I've spent the last five days working on a new release
> > > (and put aside my other work to do so). I'm deparately _trying_ to get
> > > it out on Friday or Saturday. So far, I've spent all of the time
> > > applying submitted patches and performing tests. I have yet to code
> > > anything earthshatteringly new myself. One side note: When this next
> > > release goes out, I won't be available to answer questions....I'll be
> > > on travel all next week. :-(
> > >
> > > If any apologies are due, they are due to patch submitters. I have not
> > > responded on these as quickly as I should. The trouble is primarily a
> > > testing issue. Even simple testing is a time-consuming process, and
> > > it's difficult for us to allocate the time and resources
> > > (computers/cards/RF channels) to perform these tests when we're also
> > > testing our commercial stuff. Secondly, I'm really, really short of
> > > time right now.
> > >
> > > We at AVS are aware of all of these issues and desperately looking for
> > > ways to improve our support. I'm trying to figure out a way that I can
> > > allocate a fixed amount of time to the OS code each week. This hasn't
> > > worked out yet. Part of this is because AVS has been floating: we've
> > > recently moved our offices (and my household) to a new city (namely
> > > Melbourne, FL). The office is currently in temporary space with
> > > everyone sharing 1 56K modem connection to the 'Net. We're moving into
> > > our permanent space later this week. Yeah! Our broadband connection
> > > will be back. Soon, I hope, things will even out to some semblance of
> > > normalcy.
> > >
> > > The reason I mentioned the connection.....that's why the FTP site and
> > > mailing lists aren't fixed. I have a new host to move everything
> > > to. It's just very remote and getting to it through the stupid modem
> > > is so unpleasant that I decided to wait until we're in the new office
> > > with the high-speed connection.
> > >
> > > In regards to the prism2dl decision: I stand by it and always will.
> > > We are a business...and a legal target. People can and have (which
> > > I've seen in my lurking) ruined cards such that they can't even be
> > > fixed by the manufacturer. The reasons for this are not well
> > > documented ANYWHERE or under any legal terms. It has taken me a long
> > > time to accumulate the knowledge to get it right and the chances of my
> > > successfully supporting someone via e-mail or telephone and getting the
> > > load right are extremely remote. Even I still screw up cards from
> > > time-to-time (you should see my desk drawer full of broken cards ;-).
> > > We just can't expose ourselves to that kind of risk.
> > >
> > > The WEP code question is more one of support. It is somewhat
> > > experimental and I haven't looked at it in so long that I can't
> > > remember what state it's in. Aside from the legal concerns, I'm
> > > concerned about support burden. Please remember that I get a _lot_ of
> > > directed e-mail that the list never sees and it is very time consuming.
> > > Now, I did write it, and I did tell someone about it....does that mean
> > > I should be slammed for not handing it out to every person who asks?
> > >
> > > Ok, now the AP question: The prism2 AP code that is present in wlan-ng
> > > was developed and released as part of research project. It depends on
> > > a firmware image from Intersil that is only supposed to be available
> > > under very specific license terms. My assumption at this point is that
> > > the people who obtained the image that was posted here are not licensed
> > > users. I know the firmware developers personally. I know how hard they
> > > work on this stuff. Additionally, Intersil has been very helpful to
> > > us. This whole situation puts our relationship at risk. As such, I
> > > made the decision to halt all public support for AP operation. If you
> > > have a problem with this, then _you_ spend 5 years building the
> > > relationships and experience necessary to do this stuff just to have
> > > someone put it all at risk with one e-mail. I'm sorry to be so harsh,
> > > but this abuse of Intersil's property rights really upsets me.
> > >
> > > Now, down to the bottom line. :-) I'm a Linux coder and enthusiast.
> > > Given my wants and desires, I'd work on the OS code and support OS
> > > users all day every day. Unfortunately, that doesn't get the bills
> > > paid. Therein lies the problem: My tendency is to be
> > > tempted/lured/distracted away from the work that pays the bills by the
> > > OS code and support. Truly, I LIKE you people and enjoy contributing
> > > everything I can. Given a choice between sitting in a meeting
> > > hammering out a contract with a collection of marketroids and doing OS
> > > work, the OS work will win out every time. Unfortunately, the OS work
> > > doesn't pay well. This is why I disappear from time to time. To
> > > maintain my concentration on the other work, I have to completely put
> > > the OS stuff aside.
> > >
> > > Ok, that's (more than?) enough for now. I'm going to get back to work
> > > on the code.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > > -Mark
> > >
> > > PS: Sorry about the missing documentation. It has even a lower
> > > priority than the OS code and support.
> > >
> > > > Brian - If someone COULD tell you unequivocally ... would you really
> > > > release the code?
> > > > If so ... I will get the Lawyers on it ASAP! (At MY cost!)
> > > >
> > > > The truth is that this driver and the people associated with it are
> > > > NOT promoting the use of the prism2 device
> > > > within a Linux environment in a Open source manner (like their web
> > > > site claims).
> > > >
> > > > http://www.linux-wlan.com/linux-wlan/index.html
> > > >
> > > > They are in Business and the only thing they are promoting is their
> > > > profit($).
> > > > It is not a secret that they would prefer you to buy($) their
> > > > product.
> > > >
> > > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/dev/linux-wlan/2001-q1/0087.ht
> > > >ml
> > > >
> > > > You can of course hunt and peck your way through the cryptic
> > > > (UN-DOCUMENTED) releases of the driver, but
> > > > do not expect even the slightest of (non-commercial) support. If you
> > > > are a novice .... good luck!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.lifix.fi/extarchive/lwlan/2000-12/msg00029.html
> > > > http://www.lifix.fi/extarchive/lwlan/2000-09/msg00042.html
> > > > http://www.lifix.fi/extarchive/lwlan/2000-09/msg00050.html
> > > >
> > > > I am not criticizing ... I am just pointing out FACTS. (I too am a
> > > > capitalist!)
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the gentlemen at absoval.com have provided us with at least this
> > > > much! and they don't owe the Linux community ANYTHING! I guess the
> > > > Linux community (including myself) have just come to expect more from
> > > > an open source project. Selectively releasing source (in my opinion)
> > > > is NOT open source. The removing of the download utility from the
> > > > distribution is a perfect example. What did it really do to them ...
> > > > it is not like they were supporting it!
> > > >
> > > > I guess time will tell whether absoval.com will make any more
> > > > excesses as to why they don't (can't) support Ad-Hoc, AP, WEP, etc.
> > > > Is it really a fear of being sued ... or is it that they don't want
> > > > to risk the edge they have in this industry?
> > > >
> > > > I would bet that their $20,000.00 product has FULL documentation,
> > > > more advanced features, oh and lets not forget ... support.
> > > >
> > > > Let me also remind you of another company who had enjoyed great
> > > > revenue returns ... until Panasonic released the VHS format!
> > > > (Free of Charge ... and with ALL the nuts and bolts!) How many BETA
> > > > units are still in use?
> > > >
> > > > Scott Franzyshen (Saving my pennies until I have $20,000.00)
> > > > http://www.getwireless.net/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-linux-wlan-develnightsky.com
> > > > [mailto:owner-linux-wlan-develnightsky.com]On Behalf Of Brian
> > > > Mathews Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 8:42 AM
> > > > To: linux-wlan-develabsoval.com
> > > > Subject: RE: [lwlan-devel]: WEP in linux-wlan (not ng)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry about no response. Unfortunately, we're still
> > > > paranoid about releasing that code. I'm not a lawyer
> > > > and until someone can tell me unequivocally that we
> > > > won't get in trouble, I don't think it is worth the
> > > > risk.
> > > >
> > > > Brian
> > > >
> > > > --- Scott Franzyshen <sfranzyshenlazerlink.net>
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hmmmm ... no responce
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-linux-wlan-develnightsky.com
> > > > > [mailto:owner-linux-wlan-develnightsky.com]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Ivo Simicevic
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 1:44 PM
> > > > > To: linux-wlan-develabsoval.com
> > > > > Subject: [lwlan-devel]: WEP in linux-wlan (not ng)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess this is a question for Mark.
> > > > >
> > > > > As RSA algorithm is no longer protected by patent
> > > > > has anything
> > > > > changed regarding this statement?
> > > > >
> > > > > " I have an implementation of WEP, but I cannot
> > > > > distribute it
> > > > > because of concerns about being sued. "
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ivo.
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Linux WLAN Developer's List
> > > > > For more information about this list see:
> > > > > http://www.absoval.com/linux-wlan/lists.html
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Linux WLAN Developer's List
> > > > > For more information about this list see:
> > > > > http://www.absoval.com/linux-wlan/lists.html
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > Brian D. Mathews Phone(direct) (321)259-0737
> > > > AbsoluteValue Systems Fax (321)259-0286
> > > > PO Box 410670 Alt. No. (321)795-8558
> > > > Melbourne, FL Email brianlinux-wlan.com
> > > > 32941-0670 Web http://www.linux-wlan.com
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > > Linux WLAN Developer's List
> > > > For more information about this list see:
> > > > http://www.absoval.com/linux-wlan/lists.html
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > > Linux WLAN Developer's List
> > > > For more information about this list see:
> > > > http://www.absoval.com/linux-wlan/lists.html
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Mark S. Mathews
> > >
> > > AbsoluteValue Systems Web: http://www.linux-wlan.com
> > > P.O. Box 410670 e-mail: marklinux-wlan.com
> > > Melbourne, FL 32941-0670 Phone: 321.259.0737
> > > USA Fax: 321.259.0286
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > Linux WLAN Developer's List
> > > For more information about this list see:
> > > http://www.absoval.com/linux-wlan/lists.html

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