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RE: [Full-Disclosure] IE
From: Richard Silver (richard.silvereamc.org)
Date: Tue Jul 20 2004 - 14:05:47 CDT
PLEASE TAKE THIS PRIVATE/OFF-LIST
There are plenty of appropriate forums for this kind of discussion. This
just doesn't happen to be one.
On Tue, 2004-07-20 at 12:06, J.A. Terranson wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cory Crawford wrote:
> <Miscellaneous ad hominem and self referential blather about how people
> hate us because they have a different God, etc., elided>
> > As for America being so terrible. We provide the most money, people, and
> > support to humane causes then any other single or group of countries.
> This does not wipe out our sins: mass murder is not part of a zero-sum
> ethics game.
> > Who are you to say what the Israelis do or think is wrong and thus they
> > are mass-murderers?
> Any country that deliberately massacres civilians is, by definition,
> guilty of genocide.
> > See it's hypocritical people like you who are the
> > problem. You sympathize and try to have understanding for terrorists,
> > and yet you have no compassion or love for innocent people.
> <lmao> Innocent? Like the Israeli's are "innocent"? Rigghhhttt.
> Hey: don't forget to claim that I'm an "anti-semite" just because I don't
> carry the Israeli flag in my pocket.
> > America isn't the problem.
> You really don't have even a hint of a clue. Wow!
> > If it were countries, including your precious U.N,
> > would stop asking us to fix all the world's problems. I'm sure there are
> > many of us who would agree with you and we should not help our friends
> > and allies or anyone else for that matter.
> We're not talking about "the UN asking us to fix the worlds problems".
> We're talking about premeditated, ongoing, genocide being committed by
> Israel, with our explicit and implicit support. By your own "soldier's
> logic", that makes America the enemy of anyone who is a victim of the
> Israeli slaughters.
> > Yet, when there's a crisis or
> > a tyrant killing innocent people you will whine and say "why aren't we
> > doing anything?
> This is a non-argument. A sideliner. We are not talking about this
> "other case", however, since you seem determined to tell me how I would
> react - I'm pretty open and vocal, as you can see. A quick search of
> google will tell you that you are 100% full of shit on this.
> > America is evil. We are selfish. We just sit and do
> > nothing while making money off the sweat and blood of innocent victims."
> Again, not my position, nor is it a topic under discussion. We are
> talking about a specific thing: the open, brazen support for a country
> that appears to be dedicated to the removal of another race from the
> planet. Hrmmm... Why does that sound familiar?
> > When will your hypocrisy end? I say never.
> When you can find "hypocracy", then we'll talk. For now, you're just
> making shit up, and then attacking it.
> > The reason is is that despite
> > all of your supposedly intelligent word smithing and wise cracks you are
> > just another fool who thinks they know more than the lowly humans you
> > share this planet with.
> Example? Oh yes - my beliefs are different than yours, ergo, you are
> right, I am wrong, and by extension, a hypocrite, terrorist, "fringe
> lunatic", etc. You are doing a *really* good job of making my arguments
> *for me*.
> > I served this country and fought for it as an Infantryman.
> And here, finally - *mercifully* - we get to the crux of your issue. You
> are still in military mode: We will tell you what to believe, and you will
> do as told.
> Try using your own brain (which should still be attached to your own eyes
> BTW) to do a little research, and then come up with your own, *reasoned*
> beliefs and opinions. Spouting this unthinking crap makes you look like
> your enemy Bin Laden: spewing crap because it's "the right belief" -
> without any worries about fact or falsity.
> > You know
> > nothing about what our soldiers fight and die for.
> Really? Are you about to claim I didn't serve with distinction? How do
> you supposedly know this "fact"?
> > You talk about
> > America sends it's soldiers to do their dirty work. Yet, we are one of
> > the only countries in the world where our soldiers volunteer and go of
> > their own free will.
> How does this have *anything* to do with the subject at hand? Spewing
> random justifications for random acts and non-acts doesn't do anything for
> your cause. It just questions your ability to reason.
> > Unlike your precious dictators, tyrants, and
> > terrorists who force, coerce, or raise their people to believe that
> > giving their life is their duty and responsibility. While fat, lazy,
> > self-proclaimed intellectuals like yourself sit back and think how awful
> > and backward America is.
> More ad hominem blather. Please continue - you continue to make my case.
> Foaming True Believers, whether American nut jobs like you, or Afghani nut
> jobs like Bin Laden, are *ALL* still nut jobs.
> > As for your "brave" terrorists, you are obviously not nearly as bright
> > as you proclaim to be
> More ad hominem. You realize that if this were high school, or even grade
> school level debate, you'd have forfeit already, right?
> > if you think this is bravery. Bravery isn't
> > killing yourself. That's an easy way out. Bravery isn't attacking
> > innocent men, women, and children.
> Agreed. So, lets get the Israelis to stop it, rather than preventing the
> world from doing anything about it.
> > Bravery is fighting for as long as
> > you are able to draw breath for what you believe. Bravery is putting
> > your life on the line for the liberty of others in hopes that you will
> > survive to do it again another day but not afraid if that chance doesn't
> > come. My drill sergeant taught us what bravery is, "Bravery isn't dying
> > for your country. Bravery is giving the other guy the maximum
> > opportunity to die for his!"
> Rah rah... Whatever. Please note that assymetric warfare is the great
> equalizer, and has been throughout history. When you are facing an enemy
> with orders of magnitude more men and materiel, it is the only way you can
> defeat your enemy.
> All of that military pseudobullshit aside, WE created these fucking
> terrorists by *supporting* the Israeli terrorists. We are, by every
> morally defensible position, the enemy of all who have suffered under
> these campaigns of mass murder, torture, and terror.
> Remember - historically, Israel was FOUNDED as a terrorist state.
> Remember Menachim Begin? That dude *set the standards* for terror!
> As to the palestinians, they are taking in the example set by their
> current oppressors: kill enough people, and you'll get whatever you want.
> What's good for the goose...
> > You would love for this to be about Bush, but it's not. No one seemed to
> > mind Clinton dodging the draft.
> Really? Once again, before putting words into my mouth, maybe you should
> check google.
> > Maybe Bush could've served more visibly so you could have warm fuzzies,
> Maybe Bush could have *served* - period.
> > but as anyone who has served knows that service is service.
> If you show up.
> > You don't have to be an Infantryman trained to face
> > the enemy at the end of a barrel to serve and sacrifice for your
> > country.
> But you do have to show up, honor the uniform, and follow orders. Or are
> things different now?
> > Why don't you stop hating America, supporting cold-blooded,
> > spineless killers,
> Like Israel, and by extension, America?
> > pointing fingers and calling names, whining,
> Doctor!!! Heal Thyself!!!
> > and
> > start thinking about the good that is America and the American people.
> > After all, the American people are great and made up of more than Bush,
> > rich businessmen, and white racist males. America is the best, and
> > sometimes the worst, of every country and every culture in the world.
> And that has squat to do with the entire discussion. You keep asserting
> that our good outweighs our evil, but that is not a morally defensible
> position. Not even under the UCMJ.
> > I'll let you soak up my drivel. Respond if you like, but this is the
> > last email I will generate on the topic.
> Blessed is the creator!
> > You may lecture others on how
> > wonderfully brilliant you are when you wake, but I'll pass on your
> > "wisdom" and brilliant word smithing in exchange for some common sense.
> Be certain to go to the polls too. I will be there, and you'll want to
> make sure tha the Angry Midget in Washington can get re-appointed.
> > -A soldier, and American
> You are a disgrace to the uniform.
Sr Network Engineer
East Alabama Medical Center
2000 Pepperell Parkway
Opelika, AL 36801
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