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Neohapsis > Archives > PHP Discussion Digest> 2008-01

php-general Digest 31 Jan 2008 19:24:17 -0000 Issue 5267

php-general-digest-helplists.php.net
Date: Thu Jan 31 2008 - 13:24:17 CST

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php-general Digest 31 Jan 2008 19:24:17 -0000 Issue 5267

Topics (messages 268416 through 268485):

Re: Framed & Linked Content
268416 by: Per Jessen

Re: disable referer ? (was: Framed & Linked Content)
        268417 by: Per Jessen
        268477 by: Richard Lynch
        268481 by: Eric Butera
        268485 by: Per Jessen

Re: how dod you get to do multiple mysql queries concurrently?
268418 by: Per Jessen

Re: how do you get to do multiple mysql queries concurrently?
268419 by: Per Jessen

Re: thread-safety and forking (was: how do you get to do multiple mysql queries concurrently?)
268420 by: Per Jessen

Re: first php 5 class
        268421 by: Zoltán Németh
        268422 by: Zoltán Németh
        268434 by: Nathan Nobbe
        268436 by: Nathan Nobbe
        268437 by: Zoltán Németh
        268440 by: Nathan Nobbe
        268482 by: Richard Lynch

Where is FAM ?
        268423 by: Anup Shukla
        268430 by: M. Sokolewicz
        268431 by: M. Sokolewicz

PEAR website and MSIE 6
        268424 by: Richard Heyes
        268425 by: Jochem Maas
        268426 by: Eric Butera
        268432 by: Jochem Maas
        268433 by: Richard Heyes
        268435 by: Robert Cummings
        268438 by: Eric Butera
        268442 by: Jochem Maas
        268443 by: Jochem Maas
        268446 by: Robert Cummings
        268447 by: Richard Heyes
        268448 by: Richard Heyes
        268449 by: Eric Butera
        268451 by: Jochem Maas
        268452 by: Eric Butera
        268453 by: Jochem Maas
        268454 by: Jochem Maas
        268455 by: Jochem Maas
        268456 by: Eric Butera
        268458 by: Nathan Nobbe
        268459 by: Mr Webber
        268460 by: Jochem Maas
        268461 by: Robert Cummings
        268463 by: Eric Butera
        268464 by: Robert Cummings
        268465 by: Robert Cummings
        268468 by: Robert Cummings
        268469 by: Jochem Maas
        268473 by: Robert Cummings
        268474 by: Nathan Nobbe
        268476 by: Robert Cummings
        268479 by: Jochem Maas
        268480 by: Jochem Maas
        268483 by: Richard Heyes
        268484 by: Eric Butera

Re: Another question about functions...
        268427 by: Jason Pruim
        268428 by: Zoltán Németh
        268429 by: Jason Pruim

Strtotime returns 02/09/2008 for "next Saturday"....
        268439 by: Mike Morton
        268441 by: Tom Chubb
        268444 by: Nathan Rixham
        268445 by: Mike Morton
        268450 by: Tom Chubb
        268472 by: Richard Lynch

[Slightly OT] Apple MacBook MAMP and Logic
        268457 by: Tom Chubb
        268466 by: Eric Butera
        268467 by: Jochem Maas
        268470 by: Richard Lynch
        268471 by: Jason Pruim
        268478 by: Tom Chubb

Re: Need assistance using sendmail or mail()
268462 by: philip
268475 by: Tom Chubb

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

attached mail follows:

Richard Lynch wrote:

> On Tue, January 29, 2008 10:32 am, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Robert Cummings wrote:
>>
>>> The only remedy agaonst remote linking is to embed some kind of
>>> expiration in the link that accesses the document.
>>
>> Wouldn't a check of the REFERER field be enough to disable most
>> remote links? (I know it is easily forged.)
>
> Normal users also use browsers which choose not to send it all.
>
> If you don't mind losing X% of your audience because they like to use
> such a browser, you're all set... :-v

I think it's more likely to be 0.00X% ... and I dont personally mind
that. :-)

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

Richard Lynch wrote:

> On Tue, January 29, 2008 12:48 pm, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Robert Cummings wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, now you made me think on it... the primary reason I
>>> disable
>>> referrer logging is because it will also pass along lovely
>>> information
>>> such as any session ID embedded in the URL. So if you happen to get
>>> on
>>> a malicious site, they could access the account from which you've
>>> come.
>>
>> Hmm, interesting idea. I wonder if the sessionid isn't tied to the
>> IP-address even when it's part of the URL?
>
> It CANNOT be tied to the IP address, because most users' IP addresses
> are not static.

I think it is for the duration of the session. Mine certainly is.

> Google for "session hijacking" for more info.
>
>> Still, I can't help thinking that if this is a serious problem, it
>> would have been dealt with long ago.
>
> War is a serious problem.
>
> So is murder.
>
> So is people cutting me off in traffic. :-v
>
> None of them have been dealt with effectively yet.

Sure it has - nobody cuts me off in traffic here. :-)

Regardless, I did some googling and read a bit about session hijacking
and such. I still don't see much of a serious problem. When Firefox
switches off REFERER by default, we can talk again.

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

On Thu, January 31, 2008 1:19 am, Per Jessen wrote:
> Richard Lynch wrote:
>
>> On Tue, January 29, 2008 12:48 pm, Per Jessen wrote:
>>> Robert Cummings wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, now you made me think on it... the primary reason I
>>>> disable
>>>> referrer logging is because it will also pass along lovely
>>>> information
>>>> such as any session ID embedded in the URL. So if you happen to
>>>> get
>>>> on
>>>> a malicious site, they could access the account from which you've
>>>> come.
>>>
>>> Hmm, interesting idea. I wonder if the sessionid isn't tied to the
>>> IP-address even when it's part of the URL?
>>
>> It CANNOT be tied to the IP address, because most users' IP
>> addresses
>> are not static.
>
> I think it is for the duration of the session. Mine certainly is.

Yours might be.

AOL users are *NOT*.

In peak periods, an AOL users' IP address with change with every HTTP
request.

Further, large corporate users will ALL appear as a single IP address.

>> Google for "session hijacking" for more info.
>>
>>> Still, I can't help thinking that if this is a serious problem, it
>>> would have been dealt with long ago.
>>
>> War is a serious problem.
>>
>> So is murder.
>>
>> So is people cutting me off in traffic. :-v
>>
>> None of them have been dealt with effectively yet.
>
> Sure it has - nobody cuts me off in traffic here. :-)
>
> Regardless, I did some googling and read a bit about session hijacking
> and such. I still don't see much of a serious problem. When Firefox
> switches off REFERER by default, we can talk again.

Suppose only 0.1% of the Internet users have REFERER off.

You say "That's not much. 0.1%"

Now suppose there are a billion people who use the Internet.

What is 0.1% of a billion?

Do the math.

If you have even a few thousand visitors, you are likely getting at
least a few that have no REFERER...

--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 1:29 PM, Richard Lynch <ceol-i-e.com> wrote:
> On Thu, January 31, 2008 1:19 am, Per Jessen wrote:
> > Richard Lynch wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, January 29, 2008 12:48 pm, Per Jessen wrote:
> >>> Robert Cummings wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, now you made me think on it... the primary reason I
> >>>> disable
> >>>> referrer logging is because it will also pass along lovely
> >>>> information
> >>>> such as any session ID embedded in the URL. So if you happen to
> >>>> get
> >>>> on
> >>>> a malicious site, they could access the account from which you've
> >>>> come.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm, interesting idea. I wonder if the sessionid isn't tied to the
> >>> IP-address even when it's part of the URL?
> >>
> >> It CANNOT be tied to the IP address, because most users' IP
> >> addresses
> >> are not static.
> >
> > I think it is for the duration of the session. Mine certainly is.
>
> Yours might be.
>
> AOL users are *NOT*.
>
> In peak periods, an AOL users' IP address with change with every HTTP
> request.
>
> Further, large corporate users will ALL appear as a single IP address.
>
> >> Google for "session hijacking" for more info.
> >>
> >>> Still, I can't help thinking that if this is a serious problem, it
> >>> would have been dealt with long ago.
> >>
> >> War is a serious problem.
> >>
> >> So is murder.
> >>
> >> So is people cutting me off in traffic. :-v
> >>
> >> None of them have been dealt with effectively yet.
> >
> > Sure it has - nobody cuts me off in traffic here. :-)
> >
> > Regardless, I did some googling and read a bit about session hijacking
> > and such. I still don't see much of a serious problem. When Firefox
> > switches off REFERER by default, we can talk again.
>
> Suppose only 0.1% of the Internet users have REFERER off.
>
> You say "That's not much. 0.1%"
>
> Now suppose there are a billion people who use the Internet.
>
> What is 0.1% of a billion?
>
> Do the math.
>
> If you have even a few thousand visitors, you are likely getting at
> least a few that have no REFERER...
>
> --
> Some people have a "gift" link here.
> Know what I want?
> I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
> http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
> Yeah, I get a buck. So?
>
> --
>
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

The fact it can be tampered with should be enough to ignore it, right?

attached mail follows:

Richard Lynch wrote:

>>> It CANNOT be tied to the IP address, because most users' IP
>>> addresses are not static.
>>
>> I think it is for the duration of the session. Mine certainly is.
>
> Yours might be.
> AOL users are *NOT*.
> In peak periods, an AOL users' IP address with change with every HTTP
> request.

Surely you are joking?? Don't they use DHCP for dishing out addresses?
I guess AOL users just have to do without https during peak hours :-)

> Further, large corporate users will ALL appear as a single IP address.

Yes, that's assuming they're using NAT - which many small and large
entities will be, I agree. In such cases, if the session id _is_
somehow tied to the IP-address, any attempt to hijack the session from
outside the NAT'ed network will fail.

>> Regardless, I did some googling and read a bit about session
>> hijacking and such. I still don't see much of a serious problem.
>> When Firefox switches off REFERER by default, we can talk again.
>
> Suppose only 0.1% of the Internet users have REFERER off.
>
> You say "That's not much. 0.1%"
>
> Now suppose there are a billion people who use the Internet.
>
> What is 0.1% of a billion?
>
> Do the math.

10million. But what I said was that _maybe_ 0.00X% have REFERER
switched off - and 0.001% of 1billion is 10.000 people. I can live
with that.

> If you have even a few thousand visitors, you are likely getting at
> least a few that have no REFERER...

Like I said, I can live with that. If people are that paranoid, they
shouldn't be on the internet at all, IMHO.

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

Richard Lynch wrote:

>>
>> OK, what is a 'geometry column' and what is a 'spatial index' ?
>
> Imagine a single column combining both longitude and latitude.
>
> Now imagine an index that "knows" about long/lat, and keeps
> geographically "close" objects sorted in the index for you.
>
> Including "knowing" about the 180 <-> -180 degree wrap-around.
> (Or 360 === 0 wrap-around in the other geo-system.)
>
> So when you ask for "theme parks near Zurich" your DB can answer in
> milliseconds instead of minutes.

Thanks Richard - I thought Nathan was talking about an abstract concept,
not something "real".

So, back the Nathans suggestion:

> Back on the mysql side of things, try using geometry columns rather
> than numerical primary keys, with spatial indexes.. it's a MASSIVE
> performance upgrade (I've cut 5 second queries down to 0.005 by
> using geo columns)

Is this worth a try? Have others tried this?

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

Richard Lynch wrote:

> On Mon, January 28, 2008 2:52 pm, Per Jessen wrote:
>> True again. However, I was commenting on your assertion that "Process
>> forking has EVERYTHING to do with thread safety", which I will stay
>> is
>> wrong. When you fork another process, you don't need to worry about
>> whether your code is thread-safe or not. You don't have to be
>> reentrant, you could even use self-modifying code if you felt the
>> urge.
>
> Perhaps I mis-remember my C days, but I'm pretty sure it's trivial to
> write a "fork" program in which both parent and child attempt to
> utilize the same "global" resource as if they have exclusive access
> and crash your program.

I think you are mis-remembering, yes. When your fork() call returns,
you have two separate processes, your child process being an exact copy
of your parent process. (mostly, see "copy-on-write"). The only thing
they share at this point are open file descriptors which have also been
copied, so they obviously point the the same file(s).

> Sure smells like a thread-safety issue to this naive reader...
> fork() manages to "do the right thing" for many common resources, but
> it doesn't handle all of them.
> If you expect to have two processes running the same lines of codes at
> once, you need to worry about thread safety just as if there were
> "real" threads involved.

No you don't. Try this example - think about running the same shell
script twice, but concurrently. Exactly the same code (the shell
script interpreter), but not necessarily thread-safe. Try running two
copies of the mysql cli - same code, but also not thread-safe. You can
fork() any number of processes using the same code without ever needing
to worry about thread safety.

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

Per Jessen wrote:

> No you don't. Try this example - think about running the same shell
> script twice, but concurrently. Exactly the same code (the shell
> script interpreter), but not necessarily thread-safe. Try running two
> copies of the mysql cli - same code, but also not thread-safe. You
> can fork() any number of processes using the same code without ever
> needing to worry about thread safety.

Perhaps this wasn't exactly the most obvious example. Thread-safety is
essentially a matter of shared resources. And a child and parent
process don't share any resources - apart from possible open files at
time of fork(). Both processes can carry on reading and writing from
those files, and although this will probably cause unwanted results,
it's not a thread-safety issue.

Thread-safety is an issue when you have two threads both trying to
update the same linked list for instance. To guarantee the list
integrity, you need to make sure the update happens atomically. Same
thing with a shared counter for instance.
Once you have secured your list/counter update code with spinlocks,
mutexes or whatever method you chose, your code is thread-safe.

This is not a problem for two forked processes - they don't have access
to the same address-space. Which is why forking and thread-safety are
not related.

Apologies for taking so long before I changed the Subject line.

/Per Jessen, ZÃ¼rich

attached mail follows:

2008. 01. 30, szerda keltezÃ©ssel 13.01-kor Greg Donald ezt Ãrta:
> On Jan 30, 2008 12:15 PM, ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth <znemethalterationx.hu> wrote:
> > > It's opinionated software and is certainly not for everyone.
> >
> > ok it's not for everyone, certainly not for me. but what is it from your
> > point of view that makes it a 'more interesting advance'?
>
> 1) Test driven development is built-in, and not just unit tests, but
> functional tests and integration tests too. In addition there's
> several plugins that extend your tests into realms you may not have
> thought of. There's Rcov which will tell you what code you haven't
> written test for. I know, you don't write tests. It's perfectly
> natural to not write tests when your framework doesn't support them
> out of the box.

nowadays I write tests, as I use symfony and it support tests. I also
use Selenium tests for functional testing.

>
> 2) Prototype and script.aculo.us are built-in. Not just included in
> the download but fully integrated into the models.
>
> Symphony tried to pull off the same thing with it's framework but it's
> fairly messy in my opinion.
>
> update_element_function('foo', array(
> 'content' => "New HTML",
> ));
>
> Compared to the Rails equivalent:
>
> page.replace_html 'foo', :html => 'New HTML'
>
> The other Javascript helpers like observers for example are similarly
> very small.

well, symfony has prototype and script.aculo.us built-in. some of the
helper functions may be clumsy a bit, but the ones I use most of the
time (link_to_remote, remote_function and the other ajax stuff) are
perfect for what they do

>
> 3) Database migrations that allow for versioned SQL. I can roll out
> new sql or roll back my broken sql with a single command.
>
> rake db:migrate VERISON=42
>
> I can rebuild my entire database from scratch:
>
> rake db:migrate VERISON=0; rake db:migrate
>
> The migrations are Ruby code that are very tight in syntax:
>
> class CreateSessions < ActiveRecord::Migration
>
> def self.up
> create_table :sessions do |t|
> t.string :session_id, :null => false
> t.datetime :updated_at, :null => false
> t.text :data
> end
> add_index :sessions, :session_id
> add_index :sessions, :updated_at
> end
>
> def self.down
> drop_table :sessions
> end
>
> end

that sounds good, I wish I would have it in symfony ;)

>
> 4) Capistrano which is fully integrated with Subversion (and soon Git
> I heard) allows me to roll out a versioned copy of my application with
> a single command:
>
> cap deploy
>
> And then I can also rollback just as easily in case of an error:
>
> cap rollback

we use Git here, and for me a 'git clone' is perfect

>
> 5) Ruby on Rails has a built-in plugin architecture for adding vendor
> code. I can add new functionality to my app as easy as
>
> gem install acts_as_taggable
>
> or
>
> gem install pagination
>
> It's a bit like Perl's CPAN if you're familiar.
>
> There are also plugins, engines, and components depending on the level
> of integration you want the vendor code to have.

you can install plugins to symfony as well

>
> 6) Model validations extend into the view. No re-mapping of variables
> like with Smarty or some others I've tried.

> 7) The REST architecture is built-in to Rails. No more SOAP, unless
> you want it of course. No one's using it but it's there.
>

if I need it I can make it with symfony. if I don't need it I don't want
it there to be built in...

and, besides this, for smaller projects no damn framework would be
needed ;)
in that case I'm sure php is better.

greets
ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth

>
>
> --
> Greg Donald
> http://destiney.com/
>

attached mail follows:

2008. 01. 30, szerda keltezÃ©ssel 13.33-kor Greg Donald ezt Ãrta:
> On Jan 30, 2008 12:40 PM, Nathan Nobbe <quickshiftingmail.com> wrote:
> > just pointing out that the rails guys dont have much wiggle room.
> > surely, youre familiar w/ this post:
> > http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2007/09/7_reasons_i_switched_back_to_p_1.html
>
> One article from one developer means what exaclty? Perhaps he wasn't
> writing enough lines of code per day to be stay happy using Rails?
>
> > > Propel still uses XML last I messed with it. Yaml is a lot better for
> > > similar tasks. The syntax is a lot smaller which makes it a lot
> > > faster than XML.
> > well lets see, it only reads the xml when the code is generated, which is not
> > that often so any slowness of xml is not valid. and last time i generated code
> > in my project it took like under 5 seconds; boy that xml sure was painful =/
>
> Well if all you do is toy projects then XML is fine.
>
> <user id="babooey" on="cpu1">
> <firstname>Bob</firstname>
> <lastname>Abooey</lastname>
> <department>adv</department>
> <cell>555-1212</cell>
> <address password="xxxx">ahunterexample1.com</address>
> <address password="xxxx">babooeyexample2.com</address>
> </user>
>
> versus the Yaml equivalent:
>
> babooey:
> computer: cpu1
> firstname: Bob
> lastname: Abooey
> cell: 555-1212
> addresses:
> - address: babooeyexample1.com
> password: xxxx
> - address: babooeyexample2.com
> password: xxxx
>
>
> > Perfect example of an advance in web technology.
> > perfect example of something that doesnt make much difference.
>
> The time saved writing Yaml instead of XML makes a huge difference to
> me. Similar savings are to be had when comparing PHP to most anything
> except Java.

I never write the xml for propel. we use DBDesigner (although it is not
a well-written software, and there are problems with running it on
linux) and convert its xml files automatically to propel format. what's
more we have our schema generation stuff which joins together several
dbdesigner xmls (and generates code for some features propel does not
have like inheritance and multiple table referencing foreign keys)

however I agree in that yaml is cleaner and easier to write. but php can
use yaml if you have a yaml parser class in your framework, like symfony
has it.

greets
ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth

>
>
> --
> Greg Donald
> http://destiney.com/
>

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 3:24 AM, ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth <znemethalterationx.hu> wrote:

> I never write the xml for propel. we use DBDesigner (although it is not
> a well-written software, and there are problems with running it on
> linux) and convert its xml files automatically to propel format. what's
> more we have our schema generation stuff which joins together several
> dbdesigner xmls (and generates code for some features propel does not
> have like inheritance and multiple table referencing foreign keys)

thats great, i took a look at dbdesigner, though im not yet using it.
however, there is still the problem i indicated regarding existing
schemas. how would you generate a schema.xml file for an already
existing schema with a large number of tables?

-nathan

attached mail follows:

im curious, greg, what the ruby guys do for code documentation.
for php there is phpDocumentor or doxygen. i like them both.
propel has support for the former so when i generate the code
from a schema.xml file, the next thing i do is generate the
phpDocumentor-based docs for my project which is just great.
for the documentation of code i write myself i use doxygen.
after looking over spl i decided to give it a try and i must say,
its pretty sweet.
im halfway anticipating you to tell me that rails has some other
feature built in for this :)

-nathan

attached mail follows:

2008. 01. 31, csÃ¼tÃ¶rtÃ¶k keltezÃ©ssel 09.41-kor Nathan Nobbe ezt Ãrta:
> On Jan 31, 2008 3:24 AM, ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth <znemethalterationx.hu> wrote:
> I never write the xml for propel. we use DBDesigner (although
> it is not
> a well-written software, and there are problems with running
> it on
> linux) and convert its xml files automatically to propel
> format. what's
> more we have our schema generation stuff which joins together
> several
> dbdesigner xmls (and generates code for some features propel
> does not
> have like inheritance and multiple table referencing foreign
> keys)
>
> thats great, i took a look at dbdesigner, though im not yet using it.
> however, there is still the problem i indicated regarding existing
> schemas. how would you generate a schema.xml file for an already
> existing schema with a large number of tables?

you mean you have a schema in a db with a bunch of tables? there is a
symfony task for that. symfony propel-build-schema

or if you use propel alone:
http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases

greets
ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth

>
> -nathan
>
>

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 9:47 AM, ZoltÃ¡n NÃ©meth <znemethalterationx.hu> wrote:

> you mean you have a schema in a db with a bunch of tables? there is a
> symfony task for that. symfony propel-build-schema
>
> or if you use propel alone:
>
> http://propel.phpdb.org/trac/wiki/Users/Documentation/1.3/HowTos/ExistingDatabases

thanks man! ;)

-nathan

attached mail follows:

On Wed, January 30, 2008 9:42 pm, Nathan Nobbe wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2008 7:58 PM, Richard Lynch <ceol-i-e.com> wrote:
>> I don't use SPL because it makes my head spin to read it, and I
>> never
>> ever try to do something as silly as iterate over a *LARGE* array in
>> end-user pages.
>
> are there pages where you iterate over the same 'small' array more
> than
> once?

No.

> spl will definitely beat out the foreach performance over the
> arrays.

The performance is irrelevant unless it's the bottleneck, which it's not.

> its really not that bad to learn, and once you have it down, its so
> easy.
> you can decorate one thing w/ another to get new behavior at runtime.
> suppose you have a structure, you want to get some stuff out of it.
> ok,
> iterate over it, but wait you dont want all of it, wrap it in a
> FilterIterator,
> but wait, you might need those results again, wrap it in a
> CachingIterator.
> not only is the library seamless, but its faster than the stock stuff.
> and
> it has lots of other useful features as well, besides the iterators.

I tried several times to use SPL and SPL-like frameworks.

I always felt confused by the names, no matter how long I used them...

"You are in a maze of twisty dark passages, all alike."

:-)

ymmv

--
Some people have a "gift" link here.
Know what I want?
I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
Yeah, I get a buck. So?

attached mail follows:

Hi all,

The manual says,

XXXVII. File Alteration Monitor Functions
..
..
Note: This extension has been moved to the Â» PECL repository and is no
longer bundled with PHP as of PHP 5.1.0.
..
..

But i am unable to locate it on PECL either.
Is there any way to use FAM/GAMIN with PHP ?

--
Regards,
Anup Shukla

attached mail follows:

Anup Shukla wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> The manual says,
>
> XXXVII. File Alteration Monitor Functions
> ..
> ..
> Note: This extension has been moved to the Â» PECL repository and is no
> longer bundled with PHP as of PHP 5.1.0.
> ..
> ..
>
> But i am unable to locate it on PECL either.
> Is there any way to use FAM/GAMIN with PHP ?
>

http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pecl/fam/

attached mail follows:

http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/pecl/fam/

attached mail follows:

Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
for me.

http://pear.php.net

Thanks.

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

attached mail follows:

Richard Heyes schreef:
> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> for me.

firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)

>
> http://pear.php.net
>
> Thanks.
>

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> Richard Heyes schreef:
> > Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> > for me.
>
> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>
> >
> > http://pear.php.net
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
> --
>
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

IE8 passes Acid2. :)

attached mail follows:

Eric Butera schreef:
> On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
>>> for me.
>> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>
>>> http://pear.php.net
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>> --
>>
>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>
>>
>
> IE8 passes Acid2. :)

a, it's not out.
b, all that was said was it does - is there proof? (screenshot doesn't count).
c, they also want to force developers to include extra meta tags to force IE8 to run in
strict valdation mode ... otherwise it will run using the old parser ... or something like
that.
d, it's liable to be more to do with EU lawsuits than actually giving a hoot about
stds compliance of any sort.

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/25/ie8_version_switch/

attached mail follows:

> firefox not an option?

Nope.

> or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)

Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

attached mail follows:

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 14:35 +0000, Richard Heyes wrote:
> > firefox not an option?
>
> Nope.
>
> > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>
> Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...

I can see your point. If all you know is subpar then subpar works fine.

Cheers,
Rob.
--
.------------------------------------------------------------.
| InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com |
:------------------------------------------------------------:
| An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting |
| a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services |
| such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn |
| also provides an extremely flexible architecture for |
| creating re-usable components quickly and easily. |
`------------------------------------------------------------'

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> Eric Butera schreef:
>
> > On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> >> Richard Heyes schreef:
> >>> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> >>> for me.
> >> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
> >>
> >>> http://pear.php.net
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >> --
> >>
> >> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> >> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> > IE8 passes Acid2. :)
>
> a, it's not out.
> b, all that was said was it does - is there proof? (screenshot doesn't count).
> c, they also want to force developers to include extra meta tags to force IE8 to run in
> strict valdation mode ... otherwise it will run using the old parser ... or something like
> that.
> d, it's liable to be more to do with EU lawsuits than actually giving a hoot about
> stds compliance of any sort.
>
> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/25/ie8_version_switch/
>
> >
>
>

I'm up to date on the situation, thanks! :)

I just had to throw that in there because you said Firefox like it is
the best browser. I use Firefox with NoScript when I'm browsing the
web, but it is by no means the "best" browser. Safari & Opera have
"better" renderers and do it faster. I'm not talking about the
Mozilla engine though because Camino fairly decent. It's just all
that chrome bloat really makes me sick.

attached mail follows:

Eric Butera schreef:
> On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>> Eric Butera schreef:
>>
>>> On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>>>> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>>>> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
>>>>> for me.
>>>> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>>>
>>>>> http://pear.php.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>> IE8 passes Acid2. :)
>> a, it's not out.
>> b, all that was said was it does - is there proof? (screenshot doesn't count).
>> c, they also want to force developers to include extra meta tags to force IE8 to run in
>> strict valdation mode ... otherwise it will run using the old parser ... or something like
>> that.
>> d, it's liable to be more to do with EU lawsuits than actually giving a hoot about
>> stds compliance of any sort.
>>
>> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/25/ie8_version_switch/
>>
>>
>
> I'm up to date on the situation, thanks! :)
>
> I just had to throw that in there because you said Firefox like it is
> the best browser.

no that's your interpretation. I merely implied firefox was better than IE.
and if your a webdeveloper then atm it is the best browser for one simple reason - firebug.

> I use Firefox with NoScript when I'm browsing the

bully for you. given that this is the world of web2.0 I'd imagine your
browsing is rather limited. it's also masochistic given that you apparently
choose to use an inferior product (as per your own opinion)

> web, but it is by no means the "best" browser. Safari & Opera have
> "better" renderers and do it faster.

ah so my supposed opinion needs to take a back seat to your "better" opinion,
no renderer is perfect. and they're all slightly different. let's not forget
that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera and Safari is only used by MacHeads
(which account for about 0.1% of the population) - recommending firefox is mostly about
educating Joe Average to the possiblities of an alternative that is used by more than
5 people already.

> I'm not talking about the
> Mozilla engine though because Camino fairly decent. It's just all
> that chrome bloat really makes me sick.

then go to bed.

attached mail follows:

Richard Heyes schreef:
>> firefox not an option?
>
> Nope.
>
> > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>
> Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...

that's the kind of thing people say just after they hear they have prostrate cancer ;-)

seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an option? your
a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a complete arsenal of
different browsers as part of the job, no?

and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to IE7. or maybe
rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be the first time something
like this was helped by a clean install right?)

attached mail follows:

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera

Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.

attached mail follows:

Jochem Maas wrote:
> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>> firefox not an option?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>
>> Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...
>
> that's the kind of thing people say just after they hear they have
> prostrate cancer ;-)

Lol.

> seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an option?

I suppose it is, but I like Internet Explorer. Have done for ages.

> your
> a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a complete
> arsenal of
> different browsers as part of the job, no?

Yes. MSIE, Firefox, Opera etc.

> and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to IE7. or maybe
> rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be the first
> time something
> like this was helped by a clean install right?)

I don't like the IE7 interface, in particular the font smoothing thing.
And besides, I can't be arsed... :-)

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

attached mail follows:

Robert Cummings wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
>
> Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.

I wouldn't say nobody, but certainly it's a rarity.
http://www.thecounter.com reports Opera as having 1% of the market - 1%
isn't exactly a lot.

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 11:14 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> Eric Butera schreef:
> > On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> >> Eric Butera schreef:
> >>
> >>> On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> >>>> Richard Heyes schreef:
> >>>>> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> >>>>> for me.
> >>>> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>>> http://pear.php.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> >>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> IE8 passes Acid2. :)
> >> a, it's not out.
> >> b, all that was said was it does - is there proof? (screenshot doesn't count).
> >> c, they also want to force developers to include extra meta tags to force IE8 to run in
> >> strict valdation mode ... otherwise it will run using the old parser ... or something like
> >> that.
> >> d, it's liable to be more to do with EU lawsuits than actually giving a hoot about
> >> stds compliance of any sort.
> >>
> >> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/25/ie8_version_switch/
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I'm up to date on the situation, thanks! :)
> >
> > I just had to throw that in there because you said Firefox like it is
> > the best browser.
>
> no that's your interpretation. I merely implied firefox was better than IE.
> and if your a webdeveloper then atm it is the best browser for one simple reason - firebug.

I agree that Firebug is an amazing ext in Firefox. I use it regularly
along with the live headers ext in my work to track XHTTP requests.
What are your favorite aspects of Firebug? Safari has some nice HTML
and Javascript debugging with Drosera & the Web Inspector.

>
> > I use Firefox with NoScript when I'm browsing the
>
> bully for you. given that this is the world of web2.0 I'd imagine your
> browsing is rather limited. it's also masochistic given that you apparently
> choose to use an inferior product (as per your own opinion)

I use different browsers for tasks. Gmail/Google Reader share Camino.
Safari is the browser I use for browsing/work. Firefox is the
browser I use for viewing sites I don't trust with the
NoScript/Flashblock extensions. The fact that XSS and CSRF can steal
your identity/perform actions is serious business to me. I do what I
can to protect myself.

>
> > web, but it is by no means the "best" browser. Safari & Opera have
> > "better" renderers and do it faster.
>
> ah so my supposed opinion needs to take a back seat to your "better" opinion,
> no renderer is perfect. and they're all slightly different. let's not forget
> that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera and Safari is only used by MacHeads
> (which account for about 0.1% of the population) - recommending firefox is mostly about
> educating Joe Average to the possiblities of an alternative that is used by more than
> 5 people already.

I wasn't trying to say my opinion was better. I was just stating that
the rendering engine in Opera and Safari pass the acid2 test[1].
Firefox does not.

>
> > I'm not talking about the
> > Mozilla engine though because Camino fairly decent. It's just all
> > that chrome bloat really makes me sick.
>
> then go to bed.
>
> >
>
>

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid2#Compliant_applications

attached mail follows:

Robert Cummings schreef:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
>
> Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.

given that you can prove anything with statistics, I'd say that's where
all stats come from - well not all from my ass but always someone's ;-)

let me guess you use Opera ... and you work in IT right? :-P

>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 12:02 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
> >
> > Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> > and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.
>
> given that you can prove anything with statistics, I'd say that's where
> all stats come from - well not all from my ass but always someone's ;-)
>
> let me guess you use Opera ... and you work in IT right? :-P
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rob.
>
>

My wife uses Opera and she doesn't know much about computers. I
installed IE7, FF, Opera, & Safari for Windows and she picked Opera on
her own. I can't really get into it though.

attached mail follows:

Eric Butera schreef:
> On Jan 31, 2008 11:14 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>> Eric Butera schreef:
>>> On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>>>> Eric Butera schreef:
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 31, 2008 7:33 AM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>>>>>> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
>>>>>>> for me.
>>>>>> firefox not an option? or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://pear.php.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> IE8 passes Acid2. :)
>>>> a, it's not out.
>>>> b, all that was said was it does - is there proof? (screenshot doesn't count).
>>>> c, they also want to force developers to include extra meta tags to force IE8 to run in
>>>> strict valdation mode ... otherwise it will run using the old parser ... or something like
>>>> that.
>>>> d, it's liable to be more to do with EU lawsuits than actually giving a hoot about
>>>> stds compliance of any sort.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/25/ie8_version_switch/
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm up to date on the situation, thanks! :)
>>>
>>> I just had to throw that in there because you said Firefox like it is
>>> the best browser.
>> no that's your interpretation. I merely implied firefox was better than IE.
>> and if your a webdeveloper then atm it is the best browser for one simple reason - firebug.
>
> I agree that Firebug is an amazing ext in Firefox. I use it regularly
> along with the live headers ext in my work to track XHTTP requests.
> What are your favorite aspects of Firebug?

in line editing of just about everything, introspection of everything. er everything.

Safari has some nice HTML
> and Javascript debugging with Drosera & the Web Inspector.
>
>>> I use Firefox with NoScript when I'm browsing the
>> bully for you. given that this is the world of web2.0 I'd imagine your
>> browsing is rather limited. it's also masochistic given that you apparently
>> choose to use an inferior product (as per your own opinion)
>
> I use different browsers for tasks. Gmail/Google Reader share Camino.
> Safari is the browser I use for browsing/work. Firefox is the
> browser I use for viewing sites I don't trust with the
> NoScript/Flashblock extensions. The fact that XSS and CSRF can steal
> your identity/perform actions is serious business to me. I do what I
> can to protect myself.
>>> web, but it is by no means the "best" browser. Safari & Opera have
>>> "better" renderers and do it faster.
>> ah so my supposed opinion needs to take a back seat to your "better" opinion,
>> no renderer is perfect. and they're all slightly different. let's not forget
>> that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera and Safari is only used by MacHeads
>> (which account for about 0.1% of the population) - recommending firefox is mostly about
>> educating Joe Average to the possiblities of an alternative that is used by more than
>> 5 people already.
>
> I wasn't trying to say my opinion was better. I was just stating that
> the rendering engine in Opera and Safari pass the acid2 test[1].
> Firefox does not.

you didn't state anything of the sort until just then.
and you do realise that Acid2 is not actually a standard AND that there
are plenty of differences of opinion regarding the minutae of 'proper
implementation' of some of the things Acid2 tests.

>
>>> I'm not talking about the
>>> Mozilla engine though because Camino fairly decent. It's just all
>>> that chrome bloat really makes me sick.
>> then go to bed.
>>
>>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid2#Compliant_applications

attached mail follows:

Eric Butera schreef:
> On Jan 31, 2008 12:02 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
>> Robert Cummings schreef:
>>> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>>>> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
>>> Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
>>> and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.
>> given that you can prove anything with statistics, I'd say that's where
>> all stats come from - well not all from my ass but always someone's ;-)
>>
>> let me guess you use Opera ... and you work in IT right? :-P
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Rob.
>>
>
> My wife uses Opera and she doesn't know much about computers. I
> installed IE7, FF, Opera, & Safari for Windows and she picked Opera on
> her own. I can't really get into it though.

I guess the shitty interface is appealing to people with more taste than us :-)
Steve Job's would be annoyed though - which is funny in and of itself :-P

attached mail follows:

Richard Heyes schreef:
> Jochem Maas wrote:
>> Richard Heyes schreef:
>>>> firefox not an option?
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>> > or anything else that resembles a proper browser ;-)
>>>
>>> Strange, IE has been working fine for me for the last eight years...
>>
>> that's the kind of thing people say just after they hear they have
>> prostrate cancer ;-)
>
> Lol.
>
>> seriously though - why is FF (or any other browser) not an option?
>
> I suppose it is, but I like Internet Explorer. Have done for ages.

lol - some people like MacDonalds - no account for taste :-)
my guess is if you use another browser for a month, you'll get so used
to it that going back to IE will feel just as painful as opening something
other than IE does now ... at least that's how it always is for me.

I don't like Safari ... but now I use a MacBook I keep opening it up and
really I am starting to like it more and more .. although I don't really,
sort of, not, possibly :-)

>
> > your
>> a web developer, I would imagine you should be running a complete
>> arsenal of
>> different browsers as part of the job, no?
>
> Yes. MSIE, Firefox, Opera etc.
>
>> and then there's the question as to why you don't upgrade to IE7. or
>> maybe
>> rebuild the windows machine in question (hey it wouldn't be the first
>> time something
>> like this was helped by a clean install right?)
>
> I don't like the IE7 interface, in particular the font smoothing thing.

got to admit the IE7 interface is indeed a step backwards - that is quite an
achievement :-P

> And besides, I can't be arsed... :-)
>

spoken like a true webhead. may I refer you to that last comment with regard to
seeking an answer to your original question :-P

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 12:16 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> you didn't state anything of the sort until just then.
> and you do realise that Acid2 is not actually a standard AND that there
> are plenty of differences of opinion regarding the minutae of 'proper
> implementation' of some of the things Acid2 tests.

Of course. I also realize that .innerHTML wasn't actually a standard
at first. Sometimes it is up to the cowboys and not the W3C to get
stuff done.

attached mail follows:

i like opera for 4 reasons,
1. it renders fast
2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
4. when you close and reopen, all the tabs from before are still there; key

however, firefox is the champion for web development.
not only is firebug awesome, but i still use the older web developer plugin.
its good for showing form details, outlining things, and clearing the cache,
all very quick to get to and execute.

for a while i tried the multiple browser thing. but managing bookmarks in
more than one browser is a pain. also, have you ever looked at memory
consumption on ur pc w/ 2 browsers running?? get another gig for that :)

so, despite some of the klunkieness of ff, that is what i use for browsing
and development.

eric,
thanks for the tips on the safari plugins, Drosera & the Web Inspector, ill
definitely install those for my safari debugging :)

-nathan

attached mail follows:

PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Heyes [mailto:richardhphpguru.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:42 AM
To: PHP General List
Subject: [PHP] PEAR website and MSIE 6

Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
for me.

http://pear.php.net

Thanks.

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

attached mail follows:

Nathan Nobbe schreef:
> i like opera for 4 reasons,
> 1. it renders fast
> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>

undo? undo what?

> 4. when you close and reopen, all the tabs from before are still there; key
>
> however, firefox is the champion for web development.
> not only is firebug awesome, but i still use the older web developer plugin.
> its good for showing form details, outlining things, and clearing the cache,
> all very quick to get to and execute.
>
> for a while i tried the multiple browser thing. but managing bookmarks in
> more than one browser is a pain. also, have you ever looked at memory
> consumption on ur pc w/ 2 browsers running?? get another gig for that :)

I keep bookmarks in my head and in a search engine. managing them in even one browser
is too much hassle :-) I jsut keep tabs open and read whatever when I'm ready/able - I
don't ever have to shut down the browser or the machine ... and 50 open tabs is no problem
... did I mention I use a Mac ;-)

>
> so, despite some of the klunkieness of ff, that is what i use for browsing
> and development.
>
> eric,
> thanks for the tips on the safari plugins, Drosera & the Web Inspector, ill
> definitely install those for my safari debugging :)
>
> -nathan

attached mail follows:

On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:02 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
> >
> > Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> > and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.
>
> given that you can prove anything with statistics, I'd say that's where
> all stats come from - well not all from my ass but always someone's ;-)
>
> let me guess you use Opera ... and you work in IT right? :-P

I use Opera for 99% of my browsing and 90% of development. I use Firefox
for 1% of browsing (the occasional site doesn't like Opera) and 1% of
development (usually just a check that a page renders properly). I use
IE for 1% of browsing (some inept sites only like IE), and 9% of
development (usually because I keep having to re-check web pages to get
them to look right in IE's inept engine).

Would you believe me if I said I wasn't in IT? ;) My wife isn't in IT,
but she uses Opera regularly, she likes it's speed and the way it zooms.
My 4 year old son loves Opera, but he doesn't know anything else yet :)
He likes it when I jump on google images and do searches for things like
"dinosaurs", "solar system", "trucks", etc. Then he browses through the
results. of course, he also only knows Linux so far. He can happily
navigate folders and menus. The icons help determine his interest level
since he can't read very well just yet.

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On Jan 31, 2008 12:32 PM, Nathan Nobbe <quickshiftingmail.com> wrote:
> i like opera for 4 reasons,
> 1. it renders fast
> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
> 4. when you close and reopen, all the tabs from before are still there; key
>
> however, firefox is the champion for web development.
> not only is firebug awesome, but i still use the older web developer plugin.
> its good for showing form details, outlining things, and clearing the cache,
> all very quick to get to and execute.
>
> for a while i tried the multiple browser thing. but managing bookmarks in
> more than one browser is a pain. also, have you ever looked at memory
> consumption on ur pc w/ 2 browsers running?? get another gig for that :)
>
> so, despite some of the klunkieness of ff, that is what i use for browsing
> and development.
>
> eric,
> thanks for the tips on the safari plugins, Drosera & the Web Inspector, ill
> definitely install those for my safari debugging :)
>
> -nathan
>

I think I'm just bitter because I like FF so much yet it keeps getting
more sluggish on me. At home on Ubuntu x86 it is okay. At work here
on OS X PPC it is horrible. I also use the web developer toolbar for
clearing cache/cookies & viewing rendered source. Forgot about that
one. :)

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On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:18 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Eric Butera schreef:
> > On Jan 31, 2008 12:02 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> >> Robert Cummings schreef:
> >>> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:14 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >>>> let's not forget that nobody outside of IT actually uses Opera
> >>> Please back up that st-ass-tistic please. Methinks you reached around
> >>> and pulled it out of your lightless nether regions.
> >> given that you can prove anything with statistics, I'd say that's where
> >> all stats come from - well not all from my ass but always someone's ;-)
> >>
> >> let me guess you use Opera ... and you work in IT right? :-P
> >>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Rob.
> >>
> >
> > My wife uses Opera and she doesn't know much about computers. I
> > installed IE7, FF, Opera, & Safari for Windows and she picked Opera on
> > her own. I can't really get into it though.
>
> I guess the shitty interface is appealing to people with more taste than us :-)
> Steve Job's would be annoyed though - which is funny in and of itself :-P

I dunno, Opera comes with a built in flag for disabling that wretching
thing called tabbed browsing. Firefox requires you to install a plugin.
Also, I find the configurability of Opera's interface to be superior to
what I last used for Firefox.

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On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 12:25 -0500, Eric Butera wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2008 12:16 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:
> > you didn't state anything of the sort until just then.
> > and you do realise that Acid2 is not actually a standard AND that there
> > are plenty of differences of opinion regarding the minutae of 'proper
> > implementation' of some of the things Acid2 tests.
>
> Of course. I also realize that .innerHTML wasn't actually a standard
> at first. Sometimes it is up to the cowboys and not the W3C to get
> stuff done.

It's still not a standard, it won't be a standard until HTML 5 comes
out, and even then, only in HTML 5 technically speaking :) IMHO it
should have been added ages ago, it's far more convenient than using
DOM.

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On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
> > i like opera for 4 reasons,
> > 1. it renders fast
> > 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> > 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
>
> undo? undo what?

What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
etc.

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Mr Webber schreef:
> PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!
>

yes I think Richard knows that. he was asking whether anybody experienced
problems view the PEAR site (i.e. the resulting HTML) with IE6**

** I'd hazard a guess that people have problems viewing any site with IE6
but that's a different topic ;-)

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Heyes [mailto:richardhphpguru.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:42 AM
> To: PHP General List
> Subject: [PHP] PEAR website and MSIE 6
>
> Anyone have any trouble with this combination? It consistently crashes
> for me.
>
> http://pear.php.net
>
> Thanks.
>

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On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 19:03 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> >> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
> >>> i like opera for 4 reasons,
> >>> 1. it renders fast
> >>> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
> >>> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
> >> undo? undo what?
> >
> > What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> > etc.
>
> FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can remember.

I didn't say it didn't. You said "undo? undo what?" and so I was
answering that part :)

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On Jan 31, 2008 1:03 PM, Jochem Maas <jochemiamjochem.com> wrote:

> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> > etc.
>
> FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can
> remember.

it doesnt let you reclaim lost tabs. nor does it save the tabs for the next
time you
open it. i have to pkill ff or similar to get it to ask if i want to
restore the session.
opera just does it.

-nathan

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On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 19:06 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
> Robert Cummings schreef:
> > On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:02 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Would you believe me if I said I wasn't in IT? ;) My wife isn't in IT,
> > but she uses Opera regularly, she likes it's speed and the way it zooms.
> > My 4 year old son loves Opera, but he doesn't know anything else yet :)
> > He likes it when I jump on google images and do searches for things like
> > "dinosaurs", "solar system", "trucks", etc. Then he browses through the
> > results. of course, he also only knows Linux so far. He can happily
> > navigate folders and menus. The icons help determine his interest level
> > since he can't read very well just yet.
>
> great story. :-) my 4yo mostly likes trains and stuff - but he kind of
> expects the images to browse by themselves (which they do when you slideshow them ;-).
>
> I try to steer him away from tech crap, trying to get him to grok a piano
> keyboard before a PC one. and no TV either.

Our TV is connected to a computer. It's great, while watching a movie or
whatever, we can slip over to a browser and check out something about an
actor or the show itself on IMDB, Wikipedia, Google or whatever. Also, I
ripped my kid's DVD movies to the hard drive and created a little PHP
script that cycles randomly through them over and over again using
mplayer. He knows to hit spacebar if he has to hit the bathroom and 'q'
if he doesn't want to watch one in particular and then it goes onto the
next. He messes with the keyboard lots. Sometimes he'll shout over to me
"Daddy, daddy, check this out". A few weeks back he was showing me how
he could backup the playing show using the left arrow key. I encourage
him to experiment. Nothing important to lose on that computer. On
occasion he pops something up he can't get rid of, fortunately it's just
a matter of popping up a VNC window and I can correct the problem
without having to get out of my office-- which is across the room in the
basement :)

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Robert Cummings schreef:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:42 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:
>> Nathan Nobbe schreef:
>>> i like opera for 4 reasons,
>>> 1. it renders fast
>>> 2. when i have 50 tabs open, its still responsive
>>> 3. it supports ctrl+z, wicked feature :>
>> undo? undo what?
>
> What you just typed into a form, or erased and decide you actually want,
> etc.

FF does that - at least it does for me, has done for as long as I can remember.

>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

attached mail follows:

Robert Cummings schreef:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:02 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote:

...

> Would you believe me if I said I wasn't in IT? ;) My wife isn't in IT,
> but she uses Opera regularly, she likes it's speed and the way it zooms.
> My 4 year old son loves Opera, but he doesn't know anything else yet :)
> He likes it when I jump on google images and do searches for things like
> "dinosaurs", "solar system", "trucks", etc. Then he browses through the
> results. of course, he also only knows Linux so far. He can happily
> navigate folders and menus. The icons help determine his interest level
> since he can't read very well just yet.

great story. :-) my 4yo mostly likes trains and stuff - but he kind of
expects the images to browse by themselves (which they do when you slideshow them ;-).

I try to steer him away from tech crap, trying to get him to grok a piano
keyboard before a PC one. and no TV either.

>
> Cheers,
> Rob.

attached mail follows:

> PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!

What's your point?

--
Richard Heyes
http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk

Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for £299pa hosted for you -
no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free

attached mail follows:

On Jan 31, 2008 1:50 PM, Richard Heyes <richardhphpguru.org> wrote:
> > PHP is a server-side page generator. It has NOTHING to do with the browser.
> > The PHP programmer determines the content of the resulting HTML and the
> > browser reacts to THAT. Browsers never see a line of PHP script!
>
> What's your point?
>
>
> --
> Richard Heyes
> http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk
>
> Knowledge Base and Helpdesk software for Â£299pa hosted for you -
> no installation, no maintenance, new features automatic and free
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Unless somebody forgets to configure Apache properly. ;D

attached mail follows:

On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Richard Lynch wrote:

> On Tue, January 29, 2008 1:39 pm, Jason Pruim wrote:
>> Okay, so I checked everything I can think of, and it's still
>> downloading it as an application which means it's downloading the
>> entire website instead of just the data from the database... Anyone
>> have any idea what to check?
>
> Can you explain what you mean by "downloading it as an
> application"?...

I can try :) when I downloaded in clicking on the link, and tried to
open it OS X popped on a message saying that I had downloaded an
applicaiton and it was the first time I had tried to open it, was I
sure that I wanted to, and I could view the web page it was downloaded
from, go ahead and open it, or cancel.

When I tell it to open, it opens in excel, what appears to be a copy
of the actual webpage. Including the CSS, images, my banner, and then
as much of the actual database at it can cram into 1 cell.

What I found out though, is after I removed the doctype, and banners
from an included file that I was able to download it as a normal excel
file and now is working great.

I hope that explains it a little better...

And now, I just need to get my search function to work :) But that's
another e-mail... We'll see if I get a chance to tackle it today or not.

Thanks for looking though! Your replies have always been extremely
helpful.
--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
japruimraoset.com

attached mail follows:

2008. 01. 31, csÃ¼tÃ¶rtÃ¶k keltezÃ©ssel 08.12-kor Jason Pruim ezt Ãrta:
> On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Richard Lynch wrote:
>
> > On Tue, January 29, 2008 1:39 pm, Jason Pruim wrote:
> >> Okay, so I checked everything I can think of, and it's still
> >> downloading it as an application which means it's downloading the
> >> entire website instead of just the data from the database... Anyone
> >> have any idea what to check?
> >
> > Can you explain what you mean by "downloading it as an
> > application"?...
>
>
> I can try :) when I downloaded in clicking on the link, and tried to
> open it OS X popped on a message saying that I had downloaded an
> applicaiton and it was the first time I had tried to open it, was I
> sure that I wanted to, and I could view the web page it was downloaded
> from, go ahead and open it, or cancel.
>
> When I tell it to open, it opens in excel, what appears to be a copy
> of the actual webpage. Including the CSS, images, my banner, and then
> as much of the actual database at it can cram into 1 cell.
>
> What I found out though, is after I removed the doctype, and banners
> from an included file that I was able to download it as a normal excel
> file and now is working great.

oh yeah, never put your html&css stuff into an excel download :)

>
> I hope that explains it a little better...
>
> And now, I just need to get my search function to work :) But that's
> another e-mail... We'll see if I get a chance to tackle it today or not.
>
> Thanks for looking though! Your replies have always been extremely
> helpful.
> --
>
> Jason Pruim
> Raoset Inc.
> Technology Manager
> MQC Specialist
> 3251 132nd ave
> Holland, MI, 49424
> www.raoset.com
> japruimraoset.com
>

attached mail follows: