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php-general-digest-help
lists.php.net
Date: Tue Apr 22 2008 - 16:00:53 CDT
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
php-general Digest 22 Apr 2008 21:00:53 -0000 Issue 5419
Topics (messages 273386 through 273449):
php framework vs just php?
273386 by: paragasu
273387 by: Nitsan Bin-Nun
273388 by: Robert Cummings
273391 by: paragasu
273393 by: Lester Caine
273394 by: tedd
273395 by: Richard Heyes
273396 by: Paul Scott
273397 by: paragasu
273398 by: Robert Cummings
273399 by: Robert Cummings
273400 by: Tony Marston
273401 by: Kinch Zhang
273403 by: Eric Butera
273404 by: Jason Norwood-Young
273405 by: paragasu
273407 by: tedd
273408 by: Daniel Brown
273409 by: Robert Cummings
273410 by: Jay Blanchard
273412 by: Tony Marston
273413 by: Tony Marston
273414 by: paragasu
273415 by: Sancar Saran
273416 by: paragasu
273417 by: Stut
273419 by: Jason Pruim
273420 by: paragasu
273421 by: Jay Blanchard
273422 by: Bastien Koert
273423 by: Nathan Nobbe
273424 by: Tony Marston
273425 by: Daniel Brown
273426 by: Jay Blanchard
273427 by: Tony Marston
273428 by: Stut
273429 by: Nathan Nobbe
273430 by: Wolf
273431 by: Warren Vail
273432 by: paragasu
273433 by: Tony Marston
273434 by: Nathan Nobbe
273435 by: Eric Butera
273436 by: Tony Marston
273437 by: Jay Blanchard
273438 by: Tony Marston
273440 by: paragasu
273441 by: Nathan Nobbe
273442 by: Wolf
273443 by: Jay Blanchard
273444 by: Shawn McKenzie
273445 by: Tony Marston
273446 by: Tom Friedhof
273447 by: Dan Joseph
273448 by: Jay Blanchard
Emerged Sudo Problem with Php
273389 by: Heysem KAYA
273418 by: Heysem KAYA
Securing your sites against Script Kiddies
273390 by: Wolf
273392 by: paragasu
Prevent Parsing some nodes in XML documents
273402 by: Sancar Saran
Re: Security Concern?
273406 by: Philip Thompson
Re: Humour in Hotmail :OT
273411 by: Daniel Brown
Re: Opening a new window from Header Location or any other way
273439 by: Chris Braiotta
Re: Check RAW data
273449 by: rb
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
attached mail follows:
honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
project.
the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard i
look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just php
code and it work just fine.
simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework.
i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only advantages
of using framework
is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there talking
about framework.
i still prefer using just php.
i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
attached mail follows:
Umm hell yes?
I don't use frameworks, its an awsome thing, but I don't like them.
But if I'm not using any framework at all, the least I do is writing the
application object-oriented'ly.
Regards,
Nitsan
On 22/04/2008, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
>
> honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
> i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
> I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
> project.
>
> the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard i
> look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just php
> code and it work just fine.
> simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework.
>
> i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only
> advantages
> of using framework
> is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there
> talking
> about framework.
> i still prefer using just php.
>
> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
>
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 17:25 +0800, paragasu wrote:
> honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
> i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
> I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
> project.
>
> the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard i
> look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just php
> code and it work just fine.
> simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework.
>
> i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only advantages
> of using framework
> is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there talking
> about framework.
> i still prefer using just php.
>
> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
There's plenty of people out there who don't believe in frameworks.
Nothing wrong with that-- to each their own. Only thing I would ask you
is whether you ever re-use any of your own code from one project to the
next? If you do, then chances are you're slowly creating your own
framework. And if you don't, well I probably wouldn't hire you because
obviously you do everything from scratch every time and are wasting the
client's time/money.
My clients benefit downstream whenever I add to my framework. A problem
solved two years ago is a problem still solved today, and I don't need
to copy and paste into their project and thus maintain multiple versions
of the same solution. I can just use the original solution since it's
inherently part of their project. I use a lazy system for loading
modules/components/services so having extra crap in my framework doesn't
have an impact on run-time. I don't use autoload, and I only use
includes/requires if I'm extending a class. Complexity is a mixed
deal... I would probably find your system far more complex since I've
abstracted away most of the complexity. Sure there are rules, but only a
few and even they are flexible.
Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP
attached mail follows:
> My clients benefit downstream whenever I add to my framework. A problem
> solved two years ago is a problem still solved today, and I don't need
> to copy and paste into their project and thus maintain multiple versions
> of the same solution.
i am quite new in php. i only spent about 3 year playing with PHP. And what
you just
said about the 2 years old code still solved problem today. well it is true.
but i have a
different opinion based on my own experience.
i always found better solutions for old problem. For example, during PHP4
age, i have to
use XMLParser class (http://www.criticaldevelopment.net/xml/) to parse xml
file, while
in PHP5.. there is SimpleXML. And another example is mysqli prepared query.
Framework is complicated to me. It is easier to work with just php and it is
more straight forward. I have to dig deep into the framework documentation
because few hack to make it be able to work on all PHP version (backward
compatible) and AFAIK, no many framework out there support mysqli prepared
query (maybe it does, but it takes some time before someone implement thus
function without breaking the code backward compatiblity).
Backward compatible framework make the code so damn hard to debug and it
really
hurt eyes to see many cryptic code. And of course it takes some time to
understand what
a line of code does (fair enough since the framework coder takes years to
create,
Newbie like me will take twice the time, to understand and modify that
framework)
But, i agree, for productivity framework saves a lot of time. Then again, it
is easier and faster to use the drag-and-drop php code feature in macromedia
mx (no need to learn html and
not too much php)..
i still can't convince myself to use framework ;(
attached mail follows:
Robert Cummings wrote:
>> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
>> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
>
> There's plenty of people out there who don't believe in frameworks.
> Nothing wrong with that-- to each their own. Only thing I would ask you
> is whether you ever re-use any of your own code from one project to the
> next? If you do, then chances are you're slowly creating your own
> framework. And if you don't, well I probably wouldn't hire you because
> obviously you do everything from scratch every time and are wasting the
> client's time/money.
Of cause it is even more fun trying to move customers from a framework that
you selected 6 years ago to your current much more practical framework which
you realised was a much better base a couple of years later ;)
Because the old clunky framework works, its taken years to get a much more
advance framework even considered :( But we are slowly getting there ...
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
attached mail follows:
At 5:25 PM +0800 4/22/08, paragasu wrote:
>i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
>anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
I don't use a framework either. However, I do have a collection of
routines (many stolen from Rob, David et al on this list) that I use
for specific needs. That collection grows daily.
You might try what I do, which is to review every problem presented
on this list and make a demo of the solution. It's a lot of work, but
you'll build a library of stuff that you can use over and over.
Cheers,
tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
attached mail follows:
> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
Absolutely. Personally I use a lot of disparate libraries, a lot of them
from PEAR. Doing this I've never found the need or the inclination to
use a "framework".
--
Richard Heyes
+----------------------------------------+
| Access SSH with a Windows mapped drive |
| http://www.phpguru.org/sftpdrive |
+----------------------------------------+
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:34 +0100, Richard Heyes wrote:
> Absolutely. Personally I use a lot of disparate libraries, a lot of them
> from PEAR. Doing this I've never found the need or the inclination to
> use a "framework".
>
But that is kind of a framework!
You get two kinds of framework in PHP IMHO - the Glue frameworks (like
Chisimba, CakePHP etc) and the component frameworks (like PEAR, Zend
Framework etc).
What you are describing is simply a component framework. Just because
you choose not to call it a framework, does not mean that it is not a
framework.
--Paul
All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer
http://www.uwc.ac.za/portal/public/portal_services/disclaimer.htm
attached mail follows:
> You get two kinds of framework in PHP IMHO - the Glue frameworks (like
> Chisimba, CakePHP etc) and the component frameworks (like PEAR, Zend
> Framework etc).
>
personally i prefer to call "component framework" as "code library" =)
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 14:41 +0200, Paul Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 13:34 +0100, Richard Heyes wrote:
> > Absolutely. Personally I use a lot of disparate libraries, a lot of them
> > from PEAR. Doing this I've never found the need or the inclination to
> > use a "framework".
> >
>
> But that is kind of a framework!
>
> You get two kinds of framework in PHP IMHO - the Glue frameworks (like
> Chisimba, CakePHP etc) and the component frameworks (like PEAR, Zend
> Framework etc).
>
> What you are describing is simply a component framework. Just because
> you choose not to call it a framework, does not mean that it is not a
> framework.
Yep, PEAR certainly is a framework *lol*.
Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 20:49 +0800, paragasu wrote:
> > You get two kinds of framework in PHP IMHO - the Glue frameworks (like
> > Chisimba, CakePHP etc) and the component frameworks (like PEAR, Zend
> > Framework etc).
> >
>
> personally i prefer to call "component framework" as "code library" =)
Well since I've plugged my InterJinn "framework" into the likes of
Drupal, EZ Systems, Joomla, osCommerce and a myriad of craptastic
custom/legacy/smarty systems... I could easily call it a "code library"
too. Every aspect about my "framework" is optional. If I don't want/need
the scaffolding offered by some of the modules then I don't have to use
them. I guess some frameworks though do force you into their single way
of doing things.
Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP
attached mail follows:
If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing
a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application
which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions.
Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just
6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components
without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL -
so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff,
which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper
framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more
time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same
level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
cuckoo land.
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
"paragasu" <paragasugmail.com> wrote in message
news:89b35b8d0804220225t3820a279vb81cb04b416a9480mail.gmail.com...
> honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
> i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
> I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
> project.
>
> the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard i
> look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just php
> code and it work just fine.
> simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework.
>
> i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only
> advantages
> of using framework
> is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there
> talking
> about framework.
> i still prefer using just php.
>
> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
>
attached mail follows:
On 4/22/08, Tony Marston <tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> writing
> a proper application.
I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP
toy application.
--
> Tony Marston
> http://www.tonymarston.net
> http://www.radicore.org
>
> "paragasu" <paragasugmail.com> wrote in message
> news:89b35b8d0804220225t3820a279vb81cb04b416a9480mail.gmail.com...
>
> > honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
> > i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
> > I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
> > project.
> >
> > the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard
> i
> > look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just
> php
> > code and it work just fine.
> > simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework.
> >
> > i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only
> > advantages
> > of using framework
> > is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there
> > talking
> > about framework.
> > i still prefer using just php.
> >
> > i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> > anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
--
Kinch::The Missing Hacker
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Tony Marston
<tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing
> a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application
> which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions.
> Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just
> 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components
> without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL -
> so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff,
> which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper
> framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more
> time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same
> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
> cuckoo land.
Yea, what he said! Now to add my nonsense into the mix...
I don't actually use a full stack framework. What I've done is taken
the "best parts" of various frameworks and made my own frankenstein
that works along the way I think. I'm not saying I'm right, but I've
given up trying to go against myself a long time ago. So I take
components/ideas from Zend Framework, stubbles, Solar, and anything
else that has good ideas. I've also built up a pretty nice library of
code for my day to day stuff too.
I've been doing web programming for many years now and most things
usually work along the same guidelines. So finding out those common
patterns and building little modular classes around them has saved me
a lot of time. A lot of my little components aren't really
framework-esque though. They serve a very specific purpose such as
easily implementing a modified pre-order tree traversal, image
manipulation, or file uploading. But to reliably do any of that you
need a good consistent component base so that you know your database
will adhere to these specific interfaces so that you can swap
different peices in and out without breaking stuff.
Knowing that I can stitch together a table gateway that will add,
edit, remove records and be able to handle any type of file upload
while adding in extra image manipulations without actually writing
real code is huge in my book.
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 21:06 +0800, Kinch Zhang wrote:
> On 4/22/08, Tony Marston <tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> > writing
> > a proper application.
>
>
>
> I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP
> toy application.
And I disagree. I'm just putting the finishing touches on a large
multi-user asset management system, built without a framework (apart
from my own collection of objects I wrote and reuse to accelerate
development). 40 000 lines of code and my previous version is currently
being used by banks and such. We'll move them over to the new one soon.
It's taken about 3 months full-time work.
But, while I think there's nothing wrong with building from scratch as
long as you architect carefully before you start, I think that there's
also nothing wrong with frameworks. As long as you choose the one that
is best going to suit your needs from the start, it can make life
significantly easier. If you're building a web site for a client, you'd
be insane to not seriously consider a CMS like Drupal or even WordPress
(don't laugh - it's got quite a competent plug-in system and if you're
in a rush you can bang something good out the door in a day.) I'm
currently building a project based on CodeIgniter, and apart from quite
a rigid structure, you do most of the stuff yourself anyhow. I dumped
the built-in DB object for one of my own and now development is
cruising.
So, my philosophy is one of choosing the tool that best suits your
needs, your client's needs and your project's needs, rather than using
or not using frameworks based on some preconception.
J
attached mail follows:
> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> writing
> a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP
> application
> which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000
> transactions.
> Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in
> just
> 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components
> without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL -
> so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff,
> which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper
> framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you
> more
> time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same
> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
> cuckoo land.
>
> --
> Tony Marston
> <http://www.tonymarston.net>
wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework you
use
for the project. well, you have the point. but i know many open source php
out there
do not use specific framework.
not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program.
at some
points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call it
framework anyway.
a good example is os-commerce and phpBB. I don't see any framework being use
there
except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a
big program and
i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) .
you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine.
attached mail follows:
At 9:06 PM +0800 4/22/08, Kinch Zhang wrote:
>On 4/22/08, Tony Marston <tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
> > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>> writing
> > a proper application.
>
>
>I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP
>toy application.
I must like writing mickey mouse programs and toy applications for
they seem to solve my clients problems.
Maybe some day I'll learn how to use a framework and then do some
"approved" work, but I don't think my clients will notice much
difference.
Cheers,
tedd
--
-------
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:25 AM, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
> honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding.
> i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter.
> I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next
> project.
>
[snip!]
>
> i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way.
> anyone out there still doing php without using framework?
Any reusable code that solves a series of common problems,
addresses common issues, or reduces the necessity of writing common
code for an application is a framework. On one hand, I would say that
I stay away from frameworks, but on the other hand, I'd say that I
don't. It's easily explained:
I've created my own framework(s) over the years, and I don't use
prefabricated ones written by someone else. And since I never really
liked buzzwords, I've never considered calling my code core a
"framework". So by pure semantics alone, no - I don't use a bloody
framework (or a clean one either).
--
</Daniel P. Brown>
Dedicated Servers - Intel 2.4GHz w/2TB bandwidth/mo. starting at just
$59.99/mo. with no contract!
Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo.
attached mail follows:
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 21:25 +0800, paragasu wrote:
> > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> > writing
> > a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP
> > application
> > which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000
> > transactions.
> > Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in
> > just
> > 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components
> > without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL -
> > so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff,
> > which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper
> > framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you
> > more
> > time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same
> > level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
> > cuckoo land.
> >
> > --
> > Tony Marston
> > <http://www.tonymarston.net>
>
>
> wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework you
> use
> for the project. well, you have the point. but i know many open source php
> out there
> do not use specific framework.
> not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program.
> at some
> points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call it
> framework anyway.
> a good example is os-commerce and phpBB.
I'm guessing, since you quoted os-commerce and phpBB, you don't know
shit code when you see it. Just because it's popular doesn't mean the
code is good. Have you ever tried to modify either of these? What a
mess.
> I don't see any framework being use
> there
> except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a
> big program and
> i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) .
> you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine.
10k lines of code built over a framework is not the same as 10k lines
that essentially required you to build your own framework.
Cheers,
Rob.
--
http://www.interjinn.com
Application and Templating Framework for PHP
attached mail follows:
[snip]
If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
writing
a proper application. ......If you think you can achieve the same
level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
cuckoo land.
[/snip]
Tony is obviously joking here folks.
attached mail follows:
"paragasu" <paragasugmail.com> wrote in message
news:89b35b8d0804220625m5441aa8bi7ecbbd728b008ab5mail.gmail.com...
>> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
>> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>> writing
>> a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP
>> application
>> which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000
>> transactions.
>> Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in
>> just
>> 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components
>> without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no
>> SQL -
>> so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff,
>> which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper
>> framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you
>> more
>> time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same
>> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>> cuckoo land.
>>
>> --
>> Tony Marston
>> <http://www.tonymarston.net>
>
>
> wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework
> you
> use for the project.
Try looking in my signature at http://www.radicore.org
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
> well, you have the point. but i know many open source php
> out there
> do not use specific framework.
> not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program.
> at some
> points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call
> it
> framework anyway.
> a good example is os-commerce and phpBB. I don't see any framework being
> use
> there
> except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a
> big program and
> i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) .
> you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine.
>
attached mail follows:
""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C4174E9YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
> [snip]
> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> writing a proper application.
>......If you think you can achieve the same
> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>\cuckoo land.
>\[/snip]
>
> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
No I'm not.
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
attached mail follows:
>I'm guessing, since you quoted os-commerce and phpBB, you don't know
>shit code when you see it. Just because it's popular doesn't mean the
>code is good. Have you ever tried to modify either of these? What a
>mess.
honestly, i don't and not really interested to dig inside thus code. but i
guess, modifying
the phpBB code not easier than modifying the core of codeIgniter or CakePHP.
> 10k lines of code built over a framework is not the same as 10k lines
> that essentially required you to build your own framework.
since framework already included a thousand line of code even before you
start to
do the program, i think it will be less code if we start to write the
program on our own.
Not to mention, the framework core take a lot of diskspace. some more than
2MB of code.
My client is a small2 company. i manage to write code less than 300KB to do
everything they
ask me to do. Sure, i do not need all thus fancy feature (caching etc), i do
not need multiple
user or role based support provided by framework.
attached mail follows:
Hello there,
Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework...
You are really doing tons of things with much less code.
And jQuery was javaScript thingy and in php world nothing was comperable.
My toughts about php frame work was;
All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love.
And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to make love.
And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3 womens at
a time.
So ? if any of you frameworks can help me you are welcome.
Otherwise please leave me alone. I had enough problems and I don't want to
learn new vays to stuck around...
Sancar
attached mail follows:
> All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love
good joke sancar. i do not see any connection between framework and making
love.
if making love what you looking for. Porn might be a good answer for you.
> And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to make
love.
Everyone know how to do it the 1st time tough. I don't think anyone need too
much
time to learn one.
> And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3 womens
at
> a time.
I can suggest you to outsource. You need more people to do more task.
Consider paying 2
staff to do just that.
attached mail follows:
Tony Marston wrote:
> ""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
> news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C4174E9YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
>> [snip]
>> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
>> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>> writing a proper application.
>> ......If you think you can achieve the same
>> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>> \cuckoo land.
>> \[/snip]
>>
>> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>
> No I'm not.
Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT!
Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll
get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment.
As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments.
To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and
handled as it is about utility code.
I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a
well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of
code that covers everything I need to do regularly. If I have an itch it
doesn't scratch I'll write it in a reusable way. The file layout and
code library has definitely been put through it's paces and is currently
in use on a 1.4m+ UUpM (~18m PVpM) site and several smaller properties
so I know it works securely, reliably and it scales.
I don't use third-party code libraries unless there's no other way of
doing it or time constraints are in play. Maybe it's due to past
experiences or maybe it's just the way I am, but I don't like using code
written by people I don't know and trust unless I can spend time picking
it apart, and generally I found it's quicker to start again.
It's also worth noting the shocking quality of some open source
projects. It may work but do you know how secure and stable it is?
I've been forced to use a couple of "frameworks" in the past and the
main thing that struck me is that they work far too hard in the name of
being able to satisfy a wide variety of needs. This not only
over-complicates the code but can also be a massive drain on runtime
resources. I understand why they're like this but it's yet another
reason I stick to my own collection.
Anyways, back to work.
-Stut
--
http://stut.net/
attached mail follows:
On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Sancar Saran wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework...
>
> You are really doing tons of things with much less code.
>
> And jQuery was javaScript thingy and in php world nothing was
> comperable.
>
> My toughts about php frame work was;
>
> All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love.
>
> And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to
> make love.
>
> And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3
> womens at
> a time.
>
> So ? if any of you frameworks can help me you are welcome.
I think Richard is working on an AI that might help you out here... It
should be getting close to a 1.0 Public Beta by now...
>
>
>
--
Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424-9337
www.raoset.com
japruimraoset.com
attached mail follows:
> Try looking in my signature at http://www.radicore.org
wow! i read your personal website and have it on my bookmark list. i salute
you =)
attached mail follows:
[snip]
> [snip]
> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing
but
> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> writing a proper application.
>......If you think you can achieve the same
> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>\cuckoo land.
>\[/snip]
>
> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
No I'm not.
[/snip]
My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all
of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo
Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be
offensive to others...oh well)
You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP
will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a
framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale
applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher
time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse
proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever.
Different strokes for different folks.
Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons?
Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework
should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it
depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done.
attached mail follows:
On 4/22/08, Jay Blanchard <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > [snip]
> > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing
> but
> > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> > writing a proper application.
> >......If you think you can achieve the same
> > level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
> >\cuckoo land.
> >\[/snip]
> >
> > Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>
> No I'm not.
> [/snip]
>
> My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all
> of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo
> Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be
> offensive to others...oh well)
>
> You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP
> will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a
> framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale
> applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher
> time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse
> proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever.
>
> Different strokes for different folks.
>
> Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons?
> Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework
> should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it
> depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done.
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
Gonna throw my two cents in here. I think eventually we all end up using
frameworks. We just roll our own. I have been using the same framwork that I
wrote for a while now and its holding up nicely. But it also leaves a lot to
be desired in terms of a pure OO approach. So I am working on projects using
Zend and symfony and learning what their limitations are. My concern
now-a-days is more about scalibility. The company I work for uses ASP and
we've built a framework that doesn't scale well at all. But then OO in ASP
is no go.
To me, as to many of you, its about getting the correct tool for the job.
This is where the component nature of the Zend framework is more appealing.
I can pick and choose what I need without having the whole kit and kaboodle
draining resources.
Personally, I think the OO approach has relevance, but its not a panacea to
cure all ills. And under the covers its procedural any ways. (Oh, that
should raise some blood pressure ;-) )
Any way, my two cents.
--
Bastien
Cat, the other other white meat
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Blanchard <jblanchardpocket.com>
wrote:
> [snip]
> > [snip]
> > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing
> but
> > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
> > writing a proper application.
> >......If you think you can achieve the same
> > level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
> >\cuckoo land.
> >\[/snip]
> >
> > Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>
> No I'm not.
> [/snip]
>
> My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all
> of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo
> Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be
> offensive to others...oh well)
>
> You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP
> will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a
> framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale
> applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher
> time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse
> proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever.
>
> Different strokes for different folks.
>
> Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons?
> Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework
> should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it
> depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done.
i think once again we are faced with an vocabulary issue. what framework
means to one person, might not hold for another. sure we can look at
examples, code igniter, solar, zend, interjinn and radicore etc. but what
is a framework really? there are plenty of definitions out there, but its
pointless to even post them because i know we have all resigned to our own
personal definitions as such.
what i have noticed working in the industry for several years and several
companies now is that every company has eventually tacked something together
whereby they created a Rapid Application Development environment. so, if
its time for another one of those things; well we already know how to do it,
just use that code or w/e and add the new stuff or changes to create this
new thing; done.
its almost always the same story; some people are working on something and
darwins rules apply; the shitty code eventually gets scrapped in favor of
the nicer stuff the smart guys write. and while that stuff may not be as
great as some of the stuff youll be able to find available for free download
on the web, its good enough to get the job done and stand in place for years
at a time.
that said, one thing i can tell you is that ive not seen a single company
using any of the freely available php frameworks available on the web
today. this is like the 4th or 5th php shop im at so far. i have seen a
greater tendency to use frameworks from the java camp, but my suspicion is
that as php continues to age and mature companies will slowly start to use
the frameworks in their products. especially ones getting started today and
tomorrow. i think 5 years back when a lot of the companies ive worked at
were getting started, there just werent as many options per frameworks and
such.
also, getting more to a ramble; i should mention that while none of the
companies ive worked at have used any free frameworks, many have used
libraries, like pecl.
-nathan
attached mail follows:
"Stut" <stuttlegmail.com> wrote in message
news:480DF7B8.1080302gmail.com...
> Tony Marston wrote:
>> ""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
>> news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C4174E9YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
>>> [snip]
>>> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
>>> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>>> writing a proper application.
>>> ......If you think you can achieve the same
>>> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>>> \cuckoo land.
>>> \[/snip]
>>>
>>> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>>
>> No I'm not.
>
> Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT!
>
> Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get
> my contribution in early to avoid disappointment.
>
> As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments.
> To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled
> as it is about utility code.
>
> I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a
> well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code
> that covers everything I need to do regularly.
This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means to
make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore does
not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as providing
a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also provide a
series of high-level functions such as user authentication, role based
access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a workflow system.
The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a
single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in
the same league.
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
> If I have an itch it doesn't scratch I'll write it in a reusable way. The
> file layout and code library has definitely been put through it's paces
> and is currently in use on a 1.4m+ UUpM (~18m PVpM) site and several
> smaller properties so I know it works securely, reliably and it scales.
>
> I don't use third-party code libraries unless there's no other way of
> doing it or time constraints are in play. Maybe it's due to past
> experiences or maybe it's just the way I am, but I don't like using code
> written by people I don't know and trust unless I can spend time picking
> it apart, and generally I found it's quicker to start again.
>
> It's also worth noting the shocking quality of some open source projects.
> It may work but do you know how secure and stable it is?
>
> I've been forced to use a couple of "frameworks" in the past and the main
> thing that struck me is that they work far too hard in the name of being
> able to satisfy a wide variety of needs. This not only over-complicates
> the code but can also be a massive drain on runtime resources. I
> understand why they're like this but it's yet another reason I stick to my
> own collection.
>
> Anyways, back to work.
>
> -Stut
>
> --
> http://stut.net/
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Tony Marston
<tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip!]
>
> The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
> create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
> contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a
> single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in
> the same league.
I had never heard this before. Silly me.... I thought the "real
measure of a good framework" was how much of the monotony of coding
was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera.
So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago
could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40
lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet
the requirements.
Once again, it's semantics. Everyone is saying the same thing,
just not using the same terminology.
--
</Daniel P. Brown>
Dedicated Servers - Intel 2.4GHz w/2TB bandwidth/mo. starting at just
$59.99/mo. with no contract!
Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo.
attached mail follows:
[snip]
The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to
write a
single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not
in
the same league.
[/snip]
We're not worthy...and many take less than 5 minutes.
This is not the only real measure of a good framework, it is just one of
many. I wrote a tool a long time ago that does the table/form/query bit
in well under 5 minutes with several permutations. A good framework is
measured by ease of use and solving of common problems.
attached mail follows:
""Daniel Brown"" <parasanegmail.com> wrote in message
news:ab5568160804220824u70842b22ke50cded4cbb13cdfmail.gmail.com...
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Tony Marston
> <tonymarston-home.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip!]
>>
>> The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
>> create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
>> contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to
>> write a
>> single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not
>> in
>> the same league.
>
> I had never heard this before. Silly me.... I thought the "real
> measure of a good framework" was how much of the monotony of coding
> was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera.
>
> So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago
> could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40
> lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet
> the requirements.
Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow the
user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not qualify.
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
> Once again, it's semantics. Everyone is saying the same thing,
> just not using the same terminology.
>
> --
> </Daniel P. Brown>
> Dedicated Servers - Intel 2.4GHz w/2TB bandwidth/mo. starting at just
> $59.99/mo. with no contract!
> Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo.
attached mail follows:
Tony Marston wrote:
> "Stut" <stuttlegmail.com> wrote in message
> news:480DF7B8.1080302gmail.com...
>> Tony Marston wrote:
>>> ""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
>>> news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C4174E9YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
>>>> [snip]
>>>> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but
>>>> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>>>> writing a proper application.
>>>> ......If you think you can achieve the same
>>>> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>>>> \cuckoo land.
>>>> \[/snip]
>>>>
>>>> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>>> No I'm not.
>> Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT!
>>
>> Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get
>> my contribution in early to avoid disappointment.
>>
>> As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments.
>> To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled
>> as it is about utility code.
>>
>> I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a
>> well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code
>> that covers everything I need to do regularly.
>
> This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means to
> make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore does
> not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as providing
> a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also provide a
> series of high-level functions such as user authentication, role based
> access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a workflow system.
Not to me, that would be a code library. A framework is something that
would tie it all together and in doing so would introduce certain rules
and restrictions.
> The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
> create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
> contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a
> single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in
> the same league.
If that's your attitude I'm very happy to be in a different league. I
tend not to measure my productivity by how quickly I can develop
functionality, but rather on how well it runs, scales and how
user-friendly it is. I'm yet to meet a "framework" that satisfies those
requirements.
This is a personal preference and your arrogance has definitely put me
off ever going near your code whether it be a framework or a hello
world. You are not better than me just because you use something you
call a framework, and the fact that you think you are has given me my
biggest chuckle of the day, so thanks for that.
-Stut
--
http://stut.net/
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Jay Blanchard <jblanchardpocket.com>
wrote:
> This is not the only real measure of a good framework, it is just one of
> many. I wrote a tool a long time ago that does the table/form/query bit
> in well under 5 minutes with several permutations. A good framework is
> measured by ease of use and solving of common problems.
i agree with you here but i would add that there are tradeoffs in any
design. for example, the great strength of code igniter is its simplicity;
that is also its great weakness. its so simple; i and any newb could start
cranking out pages in no time. but... alas, as i started to use ci for a
project i uncovered many limitations. i consider it something only suitable
for smaller applications after using it for just one project. as such, i
suspect there are more complicated frameworks, whereby pages take more time
to create initially, but have a smaller number of limitations.
-nathan
attached mail follows:
> > I had never heard this before. Silly me.... I thought the "real
> > measure of a good framework" was how much of the monotony of coding
> > was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera.
> >
> > So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago
> > could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40
> > lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet
> > the requirements.
>
> Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow the
> user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not qualify.
>
> --
> Tony Marston
Wow, are you this full of yourself all the time, or just on the list? I mean, come on...
I don't use a framework and never will classify what I do as a framework, though based off any one of a design book or framework book or some buzz-word lingo spouting tard what I do write and how I write could definitely fit in it's niche.
But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't know how to RTFA of this list.
And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type, before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug*
And if it takes you 5 minutes to write that stuff with your framework, you're slow and need to work on your framework to be usable in a timely manner.
Frameworks are all about making things easier on the coder to get things done in an efficient manner, no matter how you slice it, nor what it actually interacts with. They can be BASH or Perl or HereDoc or DocuFormat or PHP or C# or WYSIWYG.
But if you really want to debate this, save the bandwidth and RTFA.
Wolf
attached mail follows:
My 2 cents. I've found that people who buy into using frameworks think that
it will establish order in the code, and improve the chances of a successful
implimentation, and it sort of delivers on these two things most of the
time. It never occurs to them that it also adds a level of complexity to
your apps code (no free lunch here). Until you learn the ins and outs of
the framework, much of your debugging time is spent fixing problems between
your code and the framework, and sometimes between the framework and other
things.
IMO, the biggest factor in producing disorderly code is chasing evolving
requirements, with and without a framework. Changing design requirements
several times in a project will do that. Using a framework is not the
guarantee you may be looking for (it could be, but it usually isn't).
Warren Vail
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:quickshiftingmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:17 AM
> To: Jay Blanchard
> Cc: Tony Marston; php-generallists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Blanchard <jblanchardpocket.com>
> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
> > > [snip]
> > > If you don't use a framework then obviously you are
> writing nothing
> > but
> > > mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when
> it comes to
> > >writing a proper application.
> > >......If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity
> > >WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land.
> > >\[/snip]
> > >
> > > Tony is obviously joking here folks.
> >
> > No I'm not.
> > [/snip]
> >
> > My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were
> better than
> > all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of
> > Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone
> would not be
> > offensive to others...oh well)
> >
> > You're right to a point, developers of large scale
> applications in PHP
> > will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small
> framework but
> > a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale
> > applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher
> > time/management factor involved but there are several
> non-mickey mouse
> > proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever.
> >
> > Different strokes for different folks.
> >
> > Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons?
> > Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too.
> What framework
> > should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to
> know...it
> > depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done.
>
>
> i think once again we are faced with an vocabulary issue.
> what framework means to one person, might not hold for
> another. sure we can look at examples, code igniter, solar,
> zend, interjinn and radicore etc. but what is a framework
> really? there are plenty of definitions out there, but its
> pointless to even post them because i know we have all
> resigned to our own personal definitions as such.
> what i have noticed working in the industry for several years
> and several companies now is that every company has
> eventually tacked something together whereby they created a
> Rapid Application Development environment. so, if its time
> for another one of those things; well we already know how to
> do it, just use that code or w/e and add the new stuff or
> changes to create this new thing; done.
> its almost always the same story; some people are working on
> something and darwins rules apply; the shitty code eventually
> gets scrapped in favor of the nicer stuff the smart guys
> write. and while that stuff may not be as great as some of
> the stuff youll be able to find available for free download
> on the web, its good enough to get the job done and stand in
> place for years at a time.
> that said, one thing i can tell you is that ive not seen a
> single company using any of the freely available php
> frameworks available on the web today. this is like the 4th
> or 5th php shop im at so far. i have seen a greater tendency
> to use frameworks from the java camp, but my suspicion is
> that as php continues to age and mature companies will slowly
> start to use the frameworks in their products. especially
> ones getting started today and tomorrow. i think 5 years
> back when a lot of the companies ive worked at were getting
> started, there just werent as many options per frameworks and such.
> also, getting more to a ramble; i should mention that while
> none of the companies ive worked at have used any free
> frameworks, many have used libraries, like pecl.
>
> -nathan
>
attached mail follows:
>I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a
>single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in
>the same league.
>-Tony Marston
i can only think of copy & paste method if i were required to write a PHP
application
without a single line of code even a simple "hello world!" application.
i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a
little harder.
attached mail follows:
"Stut" <stuttlegmail.com> wrote in message
news:480E0561.5010701gmail.com...
> Tony Marston wrote:
>> "Stut" <stuttlegmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:480DF7B8.1080302gmail.com...
>>> Tony Marston wrote:
>>>> ""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C4174E9YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>> If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing
>>>>> but
>>>>> mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to
>>>>> writing a proper application.
>>>>> ......If you think you can achieve the same
>>>>> level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud
>>>>> \cuckoo land.
>>>>> \[/snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony is obviously joking here folks.
>>>> No I'm not.
>>> Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT!
>>>
>>> Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll
>>> get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment.
>>>
>>> As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments.
>>> To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and
>>> handled as it is about utility code.
>>>
>>> I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a
>>> well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of
>>> code that covers everything I need to do regularly.
>>
>> This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means
>> to make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore
>> does not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as
>> providing a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also
>> provide a series of high-level functions such as user authentication,
>> role based access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a
>> workflow system.
>
> Not to me, that would be a code library. A framework is something that
> would tie it all together and in doing so would introduce certain rules
> and restrictions.
That's exactly what my framework does. It gives immediate access to a great
deal of standard functionality without having to reinvent the wheel.
>> The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to
>> create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the
>> contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to
>> write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then
>> you're not in the same league.
>
> If that's your attitude I'm very happy to be in a different league. I tend
> not to measure my productivity by how quickly I can develop functionality,
> but rather on how well it runs, scales and how user-friendly it is. I'm
> yet to meet a "framework" that satisfies those requirements.
I tend to write applications which only expect to have a low number of users
and where the speed of development, and hence the cost, is the most
important issue.
> This is a personal preference and your arrogance has definitely put me off
> ever going near your code whether it be a framework or a hello world. You
> are not better than me just because you use something you call a
> framework, and the fact that you think you are has given me my biggest
> chuckle of the day, so thanks for that.
>
> -Stut
Glad to be of service. Don't applaud, just throw money.
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:54 AM, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
> i can only think of copy & paste method if i were required to write a PHP
> application
> without a single line of code even a simple "hello world!" application.
> i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work
> a
> little harder.
>
imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web
based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can
do it :D
-nathan
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:54 AM, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
> >I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a
> >single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in
> >the same league.
> >-Tony Marston
>
> i can only think of copy & paste method if i were required to write a PHP
> application
> without a single line of code even a simple "hello world!" application.
> i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a
> little harder.
>
Do frameworks help our work productivity so much that we can really
continue this debate on how much time they save us? ;)
In the end it is always about getting the job done. If vanilla php
does that for you, then good. It will execute much faster since
there's less overhead. Plus we all understand php so your work will
be very portable between programmers.
That method doesn't work well for me given client demands and constant
changing requirements. I need something that can provide lots of
different functionality yet not hinder really custom stuff where it is
needed.
So find that balance. Try building a site using some random
framework. Then compare what that took versus your current setup.
Keep in mind the first attempt won't truly be a fair comparison
because of the learning curve of exploiting the potential of the
framework. Also keep in mind what it is you're trying to accomplish.
Some sites are very basic while others are quite complex. It's up to
you to know what the site needs to be able to do today and in 6
months.
attached mail follows:
"Wolf" <lonewolfnc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:19266197.1763171208878944554.JavaMail.rootcdptpa-web26-z02...
>> > I had never heard this before. Silly me.... I thought the "real
>> > measure of a good framework" was how much of the monotony of coding
>> > was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera.
>> >
>> > So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago
>> > could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40
>> > lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet
>> > the requirements.
>>
>> Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow
>> the
>> user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not
>> qualify.
>>
>> --
>> Tony Marston
>
> Wow, are you this full of yourself all the time, or just on the list? I
> mean, come on...
>
> I don't use a framework and never will classify what I do as a framework,
> though based off any one of a design book or framework book or some
> buzz-word lingo spouting tard what I do write and how I write could
> definitely fit in it's niche.
>
> But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't
> know how to RTFA of this list.
>
> And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my
> PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and
> mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type,
> before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug*
But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which
generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update
and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of
code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control
system, an audit logging system and a workflow system?
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
> And if it takes you 5 minutes to write that stuff with your framework,
> you're slow and need to work on your framework to be usable in a timely
> manner.
>
> Frameworks are all about making things easier on the coder to get things
> done in an efficient manner, no matter how you slice it, nor what it
> actually interacts with. They can be BASH or Perl or HereDoc or
> DocuFormat or PHP or C# or WYSIWYG.
>
> But if you really want to debate this, save the bandwidth and RTFA.
>
> Wolf
attached mail follows:
[snip]
But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which
generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write,
update
and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of
code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access
control
system, an audit logging system and a workflow system?
[/snip]
Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes.
attached mail follows:
""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C417531YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
> [snip]
>> But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which
>> generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write,
>> update
>> and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of
>> code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access
>> control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system?
>[/snip]
> Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes.
Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we
can all share in your wizardry?
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
attached mail follows:
> imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web
> based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u
> can
> do it :D
>
> -nathan
>
i am going to miss the fun doing programming then.
As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you
wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal.
sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking
part.
Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a
factories to
produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent
framework so other
people can use it to create many program.
If for productivity. canned food is good.
But i think, i still prefer sweet & sour fried rice over canned food. don't
you?
attached mail follows:
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02 AM, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
>
> imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web
> > based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u
> > can
> > do it :D
> >
> > -nathan
> >
>
> i am going to miss the fun doing programming then.
>
> As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you
> wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal.
> sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking
> part.
> Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a
> factories to
> produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent
> framework so other
> people can use it to create many program.
> If for productivity. canned food is good.
> But i think, i still prefer sweet & sour fried rice over canned food.
> don't you?
if you want to go w/ a cooking analogy, i tend to think of a framework as
going to a professional restaurant; where they have a nice infrastructure to
build out many different types of meals. over time you learn this
infrastructure and leverage it to construct your own famous recipies.
-nathan
attached mail follows:
> > But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't
> > know how to RTFA of this list.
> >
> > And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my
> > PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and
> > mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type,
> > before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug*
>
> But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which
> generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update
> and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of
> code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control
> system, an audit logging system and a workflow system?
>
*YAWN* yeah, I have another script that'll do that.
attached mail follows:
[snip]
> Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes.
Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that
we
can all share in your wizardry?
[/snip]
It is not a framework, it is a set of functions. But since we are in a
semantical discussion about frameworks then this re-usable code is in
fact a framework, albeit a small one just for forms. It may not be that
much of a framework though as I doubt you could complete a proper
program without some other frameworky like elements thrown in.
attached mail follows:
Tony Marston wrote:
> ""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
> news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C417531YGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
>> [snip]
>>> But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which
>>> generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write,
>>> update
>>> and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of
>>> code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access
>>> control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system?
>> [/snip]
>
>> Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes.
>
> Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we
> can all share in your wizardry?
>
http://cakephp.org
Not sure about the audit logging and I have no idea what a workflow
system is.
-Shawn
attached mail follows:
""Jay Blanchard"" <jblanchardpocket.com> wrote in message
news:9F6B7518E92167499E0168D01C2D8D9C41754BYGEX01WAL.onecall.local...
[snip]
>>> Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes.
>> Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that
>> we can all share in your wizardry?
[/snip]
> It is not a framework, it is a set of functions. But since we are in a
> semantical discussion about frameworks then this re-usable code is in
> fact a framework, albeit a small one just for forms. It may not be that
> much of a framework though as I doubt you could complete a proper
> program without some other frameworky like elements thrown in.
You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be
downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers?
--
Tony Marston
http://www.tonymarston.net
http://www.radicore.org
attached mail follows:
Frameworks not only are great for piecing together an application quickly
with user management, content filtering, access control, etc..., there is
another HUGE advantage to using a framework.
If the framework you are using has a thriving community behind it, the
framework will constantly get better, which means the software you write
will get better with little effort from yourself, just by running updates on
the core framework. Frameworks exist to make it easier for developers to
solve common problems quickly.
Every developer may have their own way that they think is the best way to
solve a certain problem. They'll cut and paste their custom component that
they wrote into all the applications that need to solve this same problem.
This works, but is this the best solution?
On the other hand, if the developer uses a framework with a community behind
it, there is probably a component in the framework that already solves that
common problem. The developer can easily include that component to solve
the problem, and if the developer, after reviewing the code of the
component, sees that there is a security concern or performance concern with
this component, the developer can enhance the component. The developer can
then submit this "patched" version of the component back to the framework
community for review and eventually get included into the core framework.
For example, lets say that the user access component of a framework recently
got a speed increase of 25% after the refactoring by some developer that
also uses this component in the framework. The rest of the developers that
use this framework now benefit from this. They can install this patch to
all the applications that use this component and reap the benefits of
another developers time to optimize the user access system. The second
developer didn't have to write any code, just run an update.
When developers contribute back to a common set of tools, the tools get
better, more secure, more optimized and in the end you get a better
product. You're also not coding in a vacuum, you get the opportunity to see
how other developers solve problems, and adapt the techniques you like to
your own. You could potentially learn a lot, just by adopting a widely used
framework. You may even realized that there are a lot of people out there
that a lot smarter than you when it comes to a certain part of your
application. Frameworks are a great learning experience.
-Tom Friedhof
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe <quickshiftingmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02 AM, paragasu <paragasugmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web
> > > based installer then go through adding content via the web interface;
> u
> > > can
> > > do it :D
> > >
> > > -nathan
> > >
> >
> > i am going to miss the fun doing programming then.
> >
> > As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you
> > wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal.
> > sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking
> > part.
> > Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a
> > factories to
> > produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent
> > framework so other
> > people can use it to create many progra