From: Dotzero (dotzerogmail.com)
Date: Sat Jul 18 2009 - 19:51:06 CDT

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I'm going to respond to Adriels comments from a client side perspective.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Adriel T.
Desautels<ad_listsnetragard.com> wrote:
> A recent blog entry that we thought "some" of you pen-testers might find
> interesting.  Feel free to leave comments on the blog:
>
> Direct URL:
> http://snosoft.blogspot.com/2009/07/truth-behind-manual-testing.html
>
>
> Verify Your Security Provider -- The truth behind manual testing.
> Something that I’ve been preaching for a while is that automated
> vulnerability scanners do not produce quality results and as such shouldn’t
> be relied on for penetration tests or vulnerability assessments. I’ve been
> telling people that they should look for a security company that offers
> manual testing, not just automated scans. The price points for quality work
> will be significantly higher, but in the end the value is much greater.
> After all the cost in damages of a single successful compromise is far
> greater than the cost of the best possible security services.
>

Adriel is correct that there is a wide variation in the nature and
quality of services offered in the pentesting space. Perhaps the
larger issue is that a significant portion of people on the client
side are not in a position to a) understand exactly what they are (or
should be) asking for and b) to evaluate the proposals from vendors.

> I’ve noticed that there are a bunch of vendors who claim to be performing
> manual testing. But when I dig into their methodologies their manual testing
> isn’t real manual testing at all, its just vetting of automated scanner
> results or testing based on the results. In other words they test on what
> the automated scanner reports and don’t do any real manual discovery. I’m
> not saying that tools like nessus (an automated scanner) don’t have their
> place, I’m just saying that they aren’t going to protect you from the bad
> guys. If you want to be protected from the threat, you need to be tested at
> a level that is a few notches higher than the threat that you are likely to
> face in the real world.
>

The threat in the real world is not a constant and in fact is a
constantly moving target. Pentesting (whether manual or automated) is
a snapshot in time. The risk associated with the fluctuating threat
level is also constantly changing as the target environment changes.

> This is akin to how the Department of Defense tests the armor on its tanks,
> and I’ve probably mentioned this before somewhere on the blog. But, we don’t
> test our tanks against fire from bb guns and .22 caliber pistols. If we did
> that they wouldn’t be very effective in war.We test the tanks against a
> threat that is a few levels higher in intensity than what they are likely to
> face in the real world. As a result, the tank can withstand most threats and
> is a very effective weapon. Doing anything less isn’t going to protect you
> when the threat tries to align with your risks; you’ll end up being an
> expensive casualty of war.
>
> So why do some security companies test at this lesser level? Its simple
> really, they are in the business of making money and care more about that
> then they do about actually protecting their customer’s infrastructure.

It might be that the customer has decided that the "lesser level" is
what they want. Even in military purchasing tradeoffs are made. A
country may choose a less heavily armored vehicle because they believe
they can get greater mobility and range. It is in fact not a binary
choice. The purchaser may choose a mix.

> Additionally, there is a market for that sort of low quality testing. There
> are some businesses that don’t actually care about their security posture;
> they just care about passing the test so that they can put a check in their
> compliancy box. Then there are other businesses that unknowingly get taken
> advantage by of vendors because they don’t know the difference between high
> quality and low quality services.
>
> So what is the difference between high quality and low quality? From a high
> level perspective it’s the difference between real manual research based
> security testing or not. Once hackers have access, they can do anything to
> your data from steal it, to install back door technology in your product's
> source code. Its happened before, and its going to happen again.
>

I'm going to have to disagree with you Adriel. "Access" is not a
generic. The real questions are access to what? Access of what nature?
and access for how long?.

> When a company tells you that they perform manual testing hold their feet to
> the fire. You can do the following things to verify it:
>
>
>        • Dig into their methodology and ask them specific questions about
> how they perform their testing. (See our white papers on how to do that).
>        • Don’t swallow jargon and terms that sound cool and don’t mean
> anything, use Wikipedia to look up the terms and make sure that they make
> sense.

I'm not sure that I would consider wikipedia authoritative. Take the
term "pivot" this is commonly used in pentesting/security yet if you
search on wikipedia for it you will not find it as relates to
pentesting.

>        • Ask them for the names of their security experts and then use tools
> like Google, LinkedIn, Facebook and PIPL to do research on those experts. If
> nothing comes up then chances are their experts aren’t experts at all.

Knowing some highly qualified people that do not show up in searches
such as you describe, I'm not sure that I would agree with you. I'm
thinking of folks that have backgrounds with 3 letter agencies or use
handles/nom de plumes (if you will) to distinguish their personal
activities from their activities as employees or representatives of
organizations. I've used dotzero (various ISPs/mail accounts) for over
20 years. It is a simple and easy way to make clear that what I write
or post is personal.

>        • Search vulnerability databases like milw0rm, securityfocus,sirtfr,
> secunia, packetstormsecurity, etc. for the vendor’s name to see if they have
> research capabilities. If you don’t get anything in return then chances are
> that they don’t have research capabilities. If that’s the case then how do
> you expect them to perform quality manual testing? Chances are that they
> won’t be able to.
>
> Remember you’re putting the integrity of your business and its respective
> name into their hands.
>

I agree with you that there are significant issues but it's not clear
to me that it is as clear cut as you make it out to be. I'm currently
evaluating proposals for a pentest engagement and I figure I will have
about 110+ hours into it by the time we make a decision. This doesn't
include the hours for the other folks who will need to sign off on the
decision. The rough break out of my time is:

8 hours to prepare the RFP (working from and modifying a previous version)
8 hours deciding which vendors to invite to participate in the RFP process
4 hours dealing with the NDA that potential vendors were required to
sign (does not include time of our contract coordinator)
20 hours answering questions from vendors
80 hours evaluating proposals

So how many companies are going to spend 3+ person weeks of working
time (what kind of impact does that have on the organization assuming
the person is qualified and not simply an administrative drone going
through the motions?) just to select a vendor? Price is certainly a
factor but there so many other things to look at.

How should the average client compare various alphabet soup
combinations that follow peoples names? How does a CISSP compare to a
CEH or a GIAC certification? Some people look mighty impressive on
paper (or the internet) but are not worth the air they breath if you
were to end up hiring them.

My personal take is that the overall situation will get worse before
it is likely to get better. There simply aren't enough
qualified/experienced security people to go around.... and let's be
honest, IT security does not come cheap (although I agree a breach is
potentially much more expensive)
Even though we may not agree 100% I appreciate your perspective and
your thought provoking posts.

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